WEBVTT

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Hello,

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Mark.

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Yes,

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I can hear you.

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Good.

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Are you ready to begin?

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Excuse me,

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are you ready to begin?

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Yes,

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I can begin now.

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All right.

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Hello.

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For the recording of this oral history,

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I,

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Doctor Stephanie Delisa,

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a teaching professor

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and honors faculty fellow at Barrett the

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Honors College at Arizona State University.

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I am talking

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with Doctor Mark Jacobs,

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former dean of Barrett.

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He has kindly agreed to be recorded as we add voice and texture

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via these conversations

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to honor and learn from a few of the many wonderful people

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that have served Barrett and or have been served by Barrett.

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There are many

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from whom we can learn about the development

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and evolution of Barrett over the years,

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and Doctor Jacobs is surely one of the absolute best

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given his role and longevity.

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While I could say more about him,

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it'd be much better if we heard from him in his voice

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as much or more than mine.

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So Mark,

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would you please share some about your

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educational and professional background before you came to Barrett so

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we could get to know you a little bit more

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and otherwise introduce yourself as you wish.

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Sure,

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I'd be happy to.

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Um,

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well,

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I grew up in Princeton,

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New Jersey,

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the son of a professor at Princeton,

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and I went to Harvard as an undergrad,

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class of '71.

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Um then I went,

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I was a biology major.

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I loved biology.

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My father was a biologist also,

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so I had a good relationship with him and that let,

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let me

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feel confident about

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being a biology major in college.

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Then I,

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then I applied to graduate school at Stanford.

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And went there as a PhD candidate in biological sciences from 71 to 75.

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When I finished my

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PhD

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at Stanford,

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working under Doctor Peter Ray,

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I got a job at Swarthmore College

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in the fall of 1975 and I was there until 2003.

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So I was there for something like 28 years,

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which was longer than most faculty had been there.

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Uh,

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for their whole lifetimes before they retired,

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but,

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but in 2003,

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I,

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I,

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I was approached

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for the job at,

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um,

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at

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Barrett Honors College at ASU.

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I was only 53 then.

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So,

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um,

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I had some more

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mileage on my tires and I wanted to

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try some administration.

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I,

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I,

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I had realized I liked administration,

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I was good at it

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in different capacities at

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at Swarthmore.

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I've been the chair of the biology department and I liked that.

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I've been the vice,

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the,

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the vice provost of the associate provost of

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Swarthmore.

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There was only one associate provost,

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the provost and the associate provost,

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and we ran.

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The academic side of Swarthmore College pretty much together.

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So I knew I,

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I was,

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I,

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I liked doing that sort of thing and I was pretty good at it.

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So I started to apply for a couple of other places,

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but

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I was approached by a search firm

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that,

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that Michael Crow had hired during his first year as president of ASU.

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To find someone who had been,

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who had experience at something like,

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as he said,

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um,

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an elite

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Eastern

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or not necessarily Eastern,

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but an elite college like

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um Amherst,

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Swarthmore Williams,

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um,

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he had been on the board of trustees

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of trustees at Bowdoin,

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and he,

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he knew what,

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what,

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what he wanted.

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He wanted someone who had experience running

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a college like that,

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but who could who could come out to ASU.

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And sort of install some of the quality

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controls at ASU's

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Honors College,

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which has just been named Barrett Honors College in

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the year 2000 when the Barrett's gave a,

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gave a,

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uh,

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a very hefty donation,

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um.

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And he wanted,

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he wanted someone who would be interested in doing that,

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and

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it was,

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it was a stage of my career where I really

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was,

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I sort of fulfilled everything I could at Swarthmore.

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I was a,

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I was a,

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an endowed professor there,

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and when I thought about things,

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I,

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I had,

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I had to realize that I was either going to stay there for another 20 years

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or move and do something.

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New and exciting,

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and that's why I decided to take the job

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at ASU.

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So I came out to ASU in the fall of 2003.

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And I served there as a dean through 2022,

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so 19 years.

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But I,

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I,

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I,

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I then took a year

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of sort of terminal leave to think and write and,

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and ponder great questions of life

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before I was,

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before I was actually forced,

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not,

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not forced,

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but before I decided to retire

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at 73 in 2023.

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So I,

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I was at ASU for 20 years.

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I'm an,

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I'm an emeritus dean and emeritus professor of biology now.

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And that's,

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that sort of brings us up to date,

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if that's what you meant by my timeline.

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Well,

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I'm glad you shared that.

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I'm sure it will be

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an

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inspiration to any students who listen to this and provide good context

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for any others who listen to this.

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So once you came here,

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who was already at Barrett that helped you get into gear,

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and

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what did you start

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doing right away?

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Well,

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first of all,

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there were,

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there were 8 faculty at the time I came.

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They're now,

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they're now something like 48 or something like that,

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I think,

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if you count everybody on all 4 Barrett campuses,

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but there were 8 faculty.

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Um,

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the,

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the chair of the faculty.

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Was,

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um

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A guy who was a philosopher,

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you,

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I don't know when,

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when did you come,

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Stephanie?

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When did you arrive?

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I came to

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Barrett in 2010,

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but I've been on the faculty since 1999.

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0,

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at ASU in general,

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yeah,

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yeah,

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OK,

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well,

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anyway,

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um,

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yeah,

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so you,

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you,

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so 2010,

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boy,

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OK.

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Well,

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I should fill you in on some of the stuff that happened then.

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Yeah,

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I,

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I came out,

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um,

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it was very important to meet.

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The biggest supporter actually was President Crowe from the start,

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and he's been a great support all the way through my career.

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He was always

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supporting.

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Me and,

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and,

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and the college,

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he wanted it badly to,

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he wanted it badly for the college to succeed

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in its newest form,

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and

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he was always,

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he always had my back,

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so that was very important.

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The provost at the time was Milt Glick,

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who was a biochemist,

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and he was also very helpful at the start.

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Um

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The people who were,

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but,

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but really I was sort of on my own a little bit.

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Kristen Nielsen,

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as she was called then because she hadn't married Bill Herman yet.

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Kristen Nielsen was,

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was the assistant dean.

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I didn't have an associate dean,

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although the former dean,

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Ted Humphrey had had an associate dean he worked with.

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So I was,

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I was aware that I,

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I would be allowed to,

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excuse me,

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I'd be allowed to do whatever I wanted,

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hiring an associate dean or,

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or hiring other people.

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Also,

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President Crowe told me

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that if I wanted to,

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I could,

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I could just ask every one of the 8 faculty to resign

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and then rehire only tenured track faculty if that's what I believed I should do.

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Or um hire other ones back that I wanted,

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and I didn't want,

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I didn't want to come in and do that at all right away.

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I wanted to see how it went for the first year.

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So I lived with all the faculty,

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got to know them very well,

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I got to like them,

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didn't fire anybody

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and realized that it was very good for,

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for Barrett's students.

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If,

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um,

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if in fact,

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The

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faculty.

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Excuse me,

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were

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instructors,

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as they were called then,

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or

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lecturers,

294
00:08:00.290 --> 00:08:00.339
um,

295
00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:01.299
because

296
00:08:01.859 --> 00:08:01.970
they,

297
00:08:02.239 --> 00:08:02.649
they,

298
00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:04.500
they didn't have to work on

299
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:06.440
research to get tenure,

300
00:08:06.760 --> 00:08:08.160
and because of that they could do things

301
00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:10.820
like lead trips to wonderful places during the summer

302
00:08:11.309 --> 00:08:13.130
with the with the Barre students and

303
00:08:13.570 --> 00:08:14.609
So after,

304
00:08:14.809 --> 00:08:16.769
after the first year when I had already hired

305
00:08:16.769 --> 00:08:19.250
Peggy Nelson as the as the associate dean,

306
00:08:19.529 --> 00:08:20.730
she and I decided that

307
00:08:21.049 --> 00:08:22.799
we didn't want to change the faculty,

308
00:08:23.049 --> 00:08:24.160
we just wanted to add to it,

309
00:08:24.209 --> 00:08:25.670
which we did eventually.

310
00:08:26.130 --> 00:08:26.299
But

311
00:08:26.489 --> 00:08:27.730
I won't go into that right now,

312
00:08:27.809 --> 00:08:28.600
but that's,

313
00:08:28.970 --> 00:08:30.029
that's how we started off.

314
00:08:31.290 --> 00:08:31.929
OK,

315
00:08:32.169 --> 00:08:32.750
so

316
00:08:33.609 --> 00:08:35.349
was Don Beggs the chair

317
00:08:35.609 --> 00:08:36.919
of the faculty at the time?

318
00:08:37.190 --> 00:08:37.200
Yes,

319
00:08:37.409 --> 00:08:37.530
yes,

320
00:08:37.690 --> 00:08:38.049
that's right,

321
00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:38.729
Don Beggs,

322
00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:39.229
sorry,

323
00:08:39.609 --> 00:08:42.558
and Ted Humphrey was the founding dean,

324
00:08:42.650 --> 00:08:44.150
and I believe his,

325
00:08:44.690 --> 00:08:47.030
his vice dean or associate dean was

326
00:08:47.250 --> 00:08:47.849
Janet Burke.

327
00:08:47.929 --> 00:08:48.729
Is that correct?

328
00:08:48.880 --> 00:08:49.369
That's correct,

329
00:08:49.489 --> 00:08:49.989
yes.

330
00:08:50.539 --> 00:08:51.330
And then

331
00:08:51.630 --> 00:08:52.809
you came in,

332
00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:53.809
Kristen

333
00:08:54.229 --> 00:08:56.460
Nielsen Herman was already here,

334
00:08:56.549 --> 00:08:57.250
and then

335
00:08:57.429 --> 00:08:59.710
how did you select to work with

336
00:08:59.989 --> 00:09:01.049
with Peggy

337
00:09:01.190 --> 00:09:01.780
Nelson?

338
00:09:02.520 --> 00:09:03.000
Well,

339
00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:03.940
I had

340
00:09:04.400 --> 00:09:07.380
an advisory council that Ted Humphrey had set up.

341
00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:07.750
Ted,

342
00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:08.119
by the way,

343
00:09:08.239 --> 00:09:10.140
was taking a terminal leave himself,

344
00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:11.830
and he was going to come back.

345
00:09:12.169 --> 00:09:12.299
He,

346
00:09:12.409 --> 00:09:14.520
he could decide whether to retire or to stay on,

347
00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:16.030
and he decided to stay on for,

348
00:09:16.280 --> 00:09:17.340
for at least the next,

349
00:09:17.719 --> 00:09:18.039
I don't know,

350
00:09:18.150 --> 00:09:20.200
15 or 15 or 16 years,

351
00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:20.700
so

352
00:09:21.239 --> 00:09:21.599
Ted was,

353
00:09:21.609 --> 00:09:25.239
was another great help because once he was back from his 1 year leave,

354
00:09:25.349 --> 00:09:26.940
so it was the beginning of my second year,

355
00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:28.840
he and I went to lunch every month.

356
00:09:29.419 --> 00:09:30.219
And I asked,

357
00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:32.809
got to ask him a lot of good questions and um

358
00:09:33.380 --> 00:09:33.390
he,

359
00:09:33.469 --> 00:09:34.799
he gave me very good advice through the,

360
00:09:34.950 --> 00:09:35.840
through the years.

361
00:09:36.190 --> 00:09:37.739
So Ted was important also,

362
00:09:37.989 --> 00:09:38.729
but he had,

363
00:09:39.229 --> 00:09:39.390
yeah,

364
00:09:39.510 --> 00:09:39.690
he,

365
00:09:39.789 --> 00:09:40.770
he had hired

366
00:09:41.130 --> 00:09:43.169
Janet Burke as an associate dean

367
00:09:43.630 --> 00:09:44.650
and um

368
00:09:45.309 --> 00:09:45.789
she was,

369
00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.030
she was going to step back to being quote unquote just faculty,

370
00:09:49.070 --> 00:09:49.599
I think,

371
00:09:49.789 --> 00:09:50.890
I think that's how it worked.

372
00:09:51.900 --> 00:09:52.369
Um,

373
00:09:52.390 --> 00:09:55.580
because she wanted to stop being associate dean also,

374
00:09:56.190 --> 00:10:00.530
so I had to hire a new associate dean if I wanted to have someone to work with like that.

375
00:10:01.729 --> 00:10:02.080
But sorry,

376
00:10:02.119 --> 00:10:03.130
what was your question again,

377
00:10:03.239 --> 00:10:03.679
Stephanie?

378
00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:04.030
Sorry.

379
00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:05.270
So you,

380
00:10:05.719 --> 00:10:07.900
how you found Peggy Nelson

381
00:10:08.650 --> 00:10:08.789
and

382
00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:09.460
yeah.

383
00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:11.179
So Ted had set up

384
00:10:11.549 --> 00:10:12.880
an honors faculty council.

385
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:14.349
It was an advisory council,

386
00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:15.400
and on it was a,

387
00:10:15.460 --> 00:10:19.140
was a professor of biology named Jane Meinschein.

388
00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:20.489
And Jane.

389
00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:22.770
Came into my office one day and,

390
00:10:22.929 --> 00:10:23.979
and very forcefully,

391
00:10:24.020 --> 00:10:24.859
which was what,

392
00:10:25.109 --> 00:10:26.380
which was sort of her nature,

393
00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:27.200
um,

394
00:10:27.219 --> 00:10:27.599
suggested

395
00:10:28.020 --> 00:10:29.919
that I look up Peggy Nelson,

396
00:10:30.099 --> 00:10:30.559
um,

397
00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:33.880
who was in the anthropology department,

398
00:10:34.260 --> 00:10:34.570
and,

399
00:10:34.780 --> 00:10:36.260
and Jane liked Peggy very much,

400
00:10:36.340 --> 00:10:37.520
she thought she'd be a great

401
00:10:37.940 --> 00:10:39.580
person to help run the honors college,

402
00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:40.020
and

403
00:10:40.299 --> 00:10:40.580
so I,

404
00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:41.210
I made a,

405
00:10:41.659 --> 00:10:42.729
a lunch date with Peggy,

406
00:10:42.780 --> 00:10:42.849
we,

407
00:10:42.979 --> 00:10:46.679
we instantly liked each other and agreed on almost everything we talked about,

408
00:10:47.260 --> 00:10:50.880
and she agreed to be the associate dean starting in January of my first year.

409
00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:53.619
Excuse me.

410
00:10:59.729 --> 00:11:00.169
So,

411
00:11:00.609 --> 00:11:01.409
from that point on,

412
00:11:01.530 --> 00:11:04.549
from January of 22004 on,

413
00:11:05.010 --> 00:11:05.570
we had

414
00:11:05.849 --> 00:11:06.719
me as the dean,

415
00:11:06.890 --> 00:11:08.159
the associate dean of Peggy Nelson,

416
00:11:08.169 --> 00:11:08.690
and then

417
00:11:09.450 --> 00:11:10.669
within another year we

418
00:11:11.330 --> 00:11:11.929
decided to,

419
00:11:12.530 --> 00:11:13.169
to um

420
00:11:13.400 --> 00:11:15.030
move Kristen from being

421
00:11:15.250 --> 00:11:18.359
sort of an ombudsman who ran the college under Ted,

422
00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:20.750
so Ted and Janet would have more time to do things

423
00:11:21.809 --> 00:11:23.909
on their own teaching and such and such.

424
00:11:24.369 --> 00:11:25.549
We asked her to be the,

425
00:11:25.650 --> 00:11:27.450
the dean of students basically.

426
00:11:27.880 --> 00:11:28.090
And,

427
00:11:28.210 --> 00:11:28.409
and,

428
00:11:28.489 --> 00:11:30.030
and we promoted her to

429
00:11:30.289 --> 00:11:32.330
associate dean from assistant dean,

430
00:11:32.770 --> 00:11:33.609
and from that point on,

431
00:11:33.650 --> 00:11:34.750
the three of us sort of.

432
00:11:35.780 --> 00:11:37.729
collaborated in running the college.

433
00:11:39.090 --> 00:11:39.099
I,

434
00:11:39.609 --> 00:11:41.130
I don't want to say run it because it,

435
00:11:41.770 --> 00:11:43.969
it was run by the faculty and the staff too,

436
00:11:44.049 --> 00:11:46.090
who were very important and all very nice people,

437
00:11:46.169 --> 00:11:46.570
but,

438
00:11:46.969 --> 00:11:47.369
but we were,

439
00:11:47.479 --> 00:11:48.130
we were sort of the,

440
00:11:48.210 --> 00:11:49.349
the triumvit that

441
00:11:50.030 --> 00:11:50.549
that made

442
00:11:50.739 --> 00:11:51.710
major decisions.

443
00:11:53.489 --> 00:11:53.979
Yes,

444
00:11:54.090 --> 00:11:57.799
I always thought of you and Peggy as a dynamic duo,

445
00:11:57.890 --> 00:11:59.830
and then as time went on,

446
00:12:00.169 --> 00:12:03.239
I realized how important Kristen was,

447
00:12:03.250 --> 00:12:05.150
and as you just referred to it

448
00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:07.469
as more or less a triumvirate.

449
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:08.330
Um,

450
00:12:08.450 --> 00:12:10.609
can you expand on

451
00:12:10.890 --> 00:12:11.429
some

452
00:12:11.969 --> 00:12:13.710
key examples of how

453
00:12:14.090 --> 00:12:15.549
you work together as a team,

454
00:12:15.989 --> 00:12:17.130
the division of labor,

455
00:12:17.250 --> 00:12:18.710
your relative strengths?

456
00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:19.330
Sure,

457
00:12:19.409 --> 00:12:20.340
I'd be happy to.

458
00:12:20.890 --> 00:12:21.359
Um,

459
00:12:21.619 --> 00:12:22.340
Kristen was,

460
00:12:22.539 --> 00:12:23.260
as dean of students,

461
00:12:23.380 --> 00:12:24.799
Kristen was overseeing,

462
00:12:25.340 --> 00:12:25.679
um,

463
00:12:25.849 --> 00:12:28.500
all the student services part of the college,

464
00:12:28.619 --> 00:12:29.640
so that means

465
00:12:29.979 --> 00:12:31.440
things like advising,

466
00:12:31.659 --> 00:12:32.119
um,

467
00:12:32.739 --> 00:12:35.679
all the activities that were student-related activities.

468
00:12:36.929 --> 00:12:37.159
Uh,

469
00:12:37.400 --> 00:12:37.409
things,

470
00:12:37.530 --> 00:12:37.559
any,

471
00:12:37.770 --> 00:12:39.549
any issue that came up with students from,

472
00:12:39.609 --> 00:12:40.520
from the faculty,

473
00:12:40.869 --> 00:12:42.830
they had a problem student in her class,

474
00:12:43.169 --> 00:12:46.630
it would filter through Kristen's system to Kristen herself.

475
00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:49.280
We had weekly meetings,

476
00:12:49.489 --> 00:12:49.940
several,

477
00:12:50.049 --> 00:12:51.119
two weekly meetings with,

478
00:12:51.130 --> 00:12:51.869
with Kristen,

479
00:12:52.270 --> 00:12:53.049
Peggy and I did.

480
00:12:53.250 --> 00:12:55.309
Peggy and I had several meetings each week

481
00:12:55.450 --> 00:12:56.570
with just ourselves,

482
00:12:56.729 --> 00:12:58.380
2-hour meetings sometimes,

483
00:12:58.849 --> 00:13:00.169
very often 2-hour meetings,

484
00:13:00.409 --> 00:13:00.559
but,

485
00:13:00.619 --> 00:13:00.830
but,

486
00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:02.309
but a couple of them each week.

487
00:13:02.890 --> 00:13:05.950
So we really got to know each other and know how the other one thought.

488
00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:07.200
And we ran the,

489
00:13:07.349 --> 00:13:08.479
the rest of the college,

490
00:13:08.530 --> 00:13:08.789
sort of,

491
00:13:08.890 --> 00:13:09.549
which meant

492
00:13:10.719 --> 00:13:12.030
Peggy focused on,

493
00:13:12.169 --> 00:13:13.039
on the faculty,

494
00:13:13.090 --> 00:13:13.869
I would say.

495
00:13:14.570 --> 00:13:15.429
She was from the,

496
00:13:15.650 --> 00:13:15.710
she,

497
00:13:15.890 --> 00:13:18.909
she had been at ASU for 11 years before she became the,

498
00:13:19.330 --> 00:13:20.400
the associate the vice,

499
00:13:20.489 --> 00:13:23.989
the associate dean and eventually called vice dean of Barrett,

500
00:13:24.530 --> 00:13:24.929
um.

501
00:13:25.869 --> 00:13:28.969
And so she knew a lot of the faculty that were outside Barrett.

502
00:13:29.190 --> 00:13:29.309
She'd,

503
00:13:29.429 --> 00:13:29.630
she'd,

504
00:13:29.789 --> 00:13:30.489
she'd handled

505
00:13:31.190 --> 00:13:33.609
those faculty as friends and even as,

506
00:13:33.989 --> 00:13:34.409
as,

507
00:13:34.630 --> 00:13:35.109
um,

508
00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:36.419
Clients,

509
00:13:36.510 --> 00:13:36.909
so to speak,

510
00:13:36.989 --> 00:13:38.309
when she was an officer

511
00:13:38.630 --> 00:13:40.289
within the department of anthropology.

512
00:13:40.590 --> 00:13:41.219
Her husband was,

513
00:13:41.309 --> 00:13:43.309
was another anthropologist in that same department,

514
00:13:43.419 --> 00:13:43.710
so she,

515
00:13:43.830 --> 00:13:45.289
she knew a lot of the faculty

516
00:13:46.229 --> 00:13:48.700
in that department and at the larger ASU.

517
00:13:49.109 --> 00:13:50.179
It made sense that she would,

518
00:13:50.349 --> 00:13:50.929
she would take.

519
00:13:52.070 --> 00:13:54.609
Take the lead in faculty relations.

520
00:13:54.950 --> 00:13:56.429
I did a lot of the budgeting.

521
00:13:56.549 --> 00:13:57.729
I did all of the

522
00:13:58.140 --> 00:14:02.650
representing to other deans and other colleges when we needed to do things like.

523
00:14:03.609 --> 00:14:05.179
Ask engineering for a favor,

524
00:14:05.260 --> 00:14:07.140
I would go ask the dean for a favor.

525
00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:07.849
I,

526
00:14:07.979 --> 00:14:08.070
I,

527
00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:10.159
I went to all the meetings with the provost.

528
00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:13.679
And and the business officer for the whole of ASU,

529
00:14:14.429 --> 00:14:16.229
the chief financial officer,

530
00:14:16.590 --> 00:14:17.590
people like that.

531
00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:18.900
And I,

532
00:14:18.979 --> 00:14:21.520
I went around and represented the college

533
00:14:21.859 --> 00:14:23.419
to high school students too.

534
00:14:23.739 --> 00:14:26.799
Whenever we were asked to come and do a program at a high school,

535
00:14:27.380 --> 00:14:29.159
I would be the one who went out,

536
00:14:29.380 --> 00:14:31.440
sallied forth and told them all about

537
00:14:31.659 --> 00:14:34.409
Barrett and why they should come to Barrett if they were so motivated.

538
00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:34.940
So,

539
00:14:35.179 --> 00:14:35.289
so,

540
00:14:35.419 --> 00:14:35.940
so we,

541
00:14:35.979 --> 00:14:36.440
we,

542
00:14:36.770 --> 00:14:39.020
3 of us met several times each week.

543
00:14:39.419 --> 00:14:40.909
I met more with Peggy.

544
00:14:41.270 --> 00:14:42.099
Peggy and I.

545
00:14:43.090 --> 00:14:44.570
They talked about almost every decision,

546
00:14:44.789 --> 00:14:44.799
if,

547
00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:44.960
if,

548
00:14:44.989 --> 00:14:45.000
if,

549
00:14:45.030 --> 00:14:45.039
if

550
00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.000
the need for a decision boiled up from below.

551
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:49.729
If there was a decision about the budget,

552
00:14:49.809 --> 00:14:50.330
for instance,

553
00:14:50.690 --> 00:14:52.239
which I was keeping an eye on with,

554
00:14:52.270 --> 00:14:53.020
with Erica

555
00:14:53.729 --> 00:14:54.250
Laterwig,

556
00:14:54.419 --> 00:14:54.450
the,

557
00:14:54.609 --> 00:14:55.510
the business manager,

558
00:14:56.369 --> 00:14:57.239
but if an issue came up,

559
00:14:57.289 --> 00:14:58.640
I would bring it up with Peggy.

560
00:14:58.969 --> 00:15:00.369
If an issue came up with the faculty,

561
00:15:00.489 --> 00:15:02.890
she would bring it up with me and we would make a joint decision.

562
00:15:03.669 --> 00:15:04.719
So it worked very smoothly,

563
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:06.460
mostly because we all liked each other.

564
00:15:06.880 --> 00:15:09.380
The 3 of us really liked each other and got along very well.

565
00:15:11.169 --> 00:15:11.489
Well,

566
00:15:11.609 --> 00:15:13.130
as a faculty member,

567
00:15:13.250 --> 00:15:14.030
I can

568
00:15:14.409 --> 00:15:17.690
say from my personal experience that the good

569
00:15:17.690 --> 00:15:19.890
relationship that the three of you had,

570
00:15:20.049 --> 00:15:21.239
I felt made it a,

571
00:15:21.570 --> 00:15:23.229
a welcoming and stable

572
00:15:23.650 --> 00:15:24.270
college

573
00:15:24.520 --> 00:15:27.369
to shift to from another college at ASU.

574
00:15:27.809 --> 00:15:29.030
So I thank you for that,

575
00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:29.570
and I,

576
00:15:29.809 --> 00:15:30.429
I do

577
00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:34.770
think that you did a wonderful job on building on the foundation.

578
00:15:35.330 --> 00:15:36.150
That Ted

579
00:15:36.289 --> 00:15:37.010
laid,

580
00:15:37.250 --> 00:15:38.909
and perhaps we could

581
00:15:39.250 --> 00:15:42.869
talk a little bit more about how you matured the college.

582
00:15:43.250 --> 00:15:44.510
Why don't we begin with

583
00:15:44.770 --> 00:15:47.669
ways that you matured the human event

584
00:15:47.929 --> 00:15:48.390
and

585
00:15:48.770 --> 00:15:51.630
how you feel like the human event,

586
00:15:52.010 --> 00:15:52.239
uh,

587
00:15:52.250 --> 00:15:54.710
relates to the success of the college.

588
00:15:55.130 --> 00:15:55.530
OK,

589
00:15:55.690 --> 00:15:56.130
sure.

590
00:15:56.489 --> 00:15:56.799
First of all,

591
00:15:56.849 --> 00:15:59.510
I'd like to say that I was visited by a delegation

592
00:15:59.929 --> 00:16:02.429
of people of faculty from the business school.

593
00:16:03.630 --> 00:16:05.429
Who were very disturbed to hear that I wasn't,

594
00:16:05.669 --> 00:16:06.030
well,

595
00:16:06.469 --> 00:16:07.409
let me back up a little.

596
00:16:08.429 --> 00:16:09.630
At the end of the fall semester,

597
00:16:09.669 --> 00:16:10.669
my first semester,

598
00:16:11.400 --> 00:16:12.359
At ASU

599
00:16:12.489 --> 00:16:14.090
and before Peggy had been hired.

600
00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.669
A student came into my office to say he was sorry he was leaving the honors college,

601
00:16:18.719 --> 00:16:19.590
but he just wanted to say he,

602
00:16:19.640 --> 00:16:20.549
he enjoyed it and he,

603
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:22.099
he didn't hold any grudge.

604
00:16:22.239 --> 00:16:22.440
I said,

605
00:16:22.479 --> 00:16:23.159
grudge about what?

606
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:23.400
He said,

607
00:16:23.450 --> 00:16:23.559
well,

608
00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:24.400
about this letter.

609
00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:26.739
He showed me a letter that was signed by me.

610
00:16:27.469 --> 00:16:27.710
And,

611
00:16:27.789 --> 00:16:31.330
and it wasn't a letter I had ever seen it was dismissing him from the college,

612
00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:34.010
which turned out to be an automatic letter that went out from the

613
00:16:34.390 --> 00:16:37.229
two-person advising office that was then at Barrett

614
00:16:37.229 --> 00:16:39.710
to any student who fell below a certain GPA

615
00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:41.210
in any semester.

616
00:16:41.429 --> 00:16:42.179
If they fell below it,

617
00:16:42.229 --> 00:16:43.989
they were just summarily dismissed.

618
00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:46.500
That had been that had been a policy before.

619
00:16:46.909 --> 00:16:47.109
So I,

620
00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:49.049
I immediately changed the policy,

621
00:16:49.630 --> 00:16:49.830
and I,

622
00:16:49.929 --> 00:16:50.150
and I,

623
00:16:50.229 --> 00:16:50.669
I had a,

624
00:16:50.789 --> 00:16:52.609
I met with the faculty and the staff of the,

625
00:16:52.659 --> 00:16:54.070
of the college and explained to them that,

626
00:16:54.669 --> 00:16:54.679
The,

627
00:16:55.349 --> 00:16:57.020
the entrance requirement to the college,

628
00:16:57.169 --> 00:16:59.530
the decision to admit a student was the main thing,

629
00:16:59.669 --> 00:17:00.830
the main hurdle they had to get over.

630
00:17:00.869 --> 00:17:01.510
After they were admitted,

631
00:17:01.549 --> 00:17:03.809
we weren't going to bother them unless they fell below.

632
00:17:04.529 --> 00:17:05.009
You know,

633
00:17:05.368 --> 00:17:06.308
a really low

634
00:17:06.808 --> 00:17:07.448
GPA,

635
00:17:08.088 --> 00:17:09.208
and we would try for,

636
00:17:09.769 --> 00:17:10.148
excuse me,

637
00:17:10.208 --> 00:17:11.948
at least a semester or two to,

638
00:17:12.368 --> 00:17:13.108
to help them

639
00:17:13.848 --> 00:17:14.868
overcome that

640
00:17:15.198 --> 00:17:16.448
low GPA anyway,

641
00:17:16.548 --> 00:17:18.388
but we would never summarily dismiss someone.

642
00:17:19.239 --> 00:17:20.660
So I say that because

643
00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:24.380
I was then visited by a delegation of business faculty,

644
00:17:24.719 --> 00:17:26.589
got faculty from the Carey School of Business,

645
00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:27.880
who wanted to tell me that they,

646
00:17:27.959 --> 00:17:28.280
they didn't,

647
00:17:28.358 --> 00:17:29.780
they didn't like that I had

648
00:17:29.989 --> 00:17:30.800
relaxed the,

649
00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:31.819
the requirements.

650
00:17:33.040 --> 00:17:33.979
Because I had,

651
00:17:34.430 --> 00:17:35.530
I'd studied what

652
00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:39.619
What the GPAs of students were in Barrett,

653
00:17:39.910 --> 00:17:42.829
and what I was saying was I didn't want them to be dismissed

654
00:17:43.030 --> 00:17:43.939
summarily,

655
00:17:43.949 --> 00:17:44.930
certainly unless

656
00:17:45.469 --> 00:17:48.300
I never want them to be dismissed summarily without any consideration,

657
00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:48.670
but I,

658
00:17:48.829 --> 00:17:51.369
I didn't even want them to be considered for dismissal

659
00:17:51.790 --> 00:17:53.209
unless they were below,

660
00:17:53.510 --> 00:17:53.920
uh,

661
00:17:54.270 --> 00:17:54.390
you know,

662
00:17:54.630 --> 00:17:56.770
a C or a 2.0

663
00:17:57.410 --> 00:17:57.420
for,

664
00:17:57.609 --> 00:17:59.229
for two semesters or something,

665
00:17:59.670 --> 00:18:00.030
and

666
00:18:00.770 --> 00:18:01.969
All I said was

667
00:18:02.170 --> 00:18:04.959
that what we were going to do is be very careful when we let people in,

668
00:18:05.010 --> 00:18:05.239
that we,

669
00:18:05.369 --> 00:18:07.550
we picked the top students that applied.

670
00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:08.250
Once we did,

671
00:18:08.290 --> 00:18:10.849
we wanted to just let them spread their wings and not hassle them,

672
00:18:11.030 --> 00:18:11.079
uh,

673
00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:13.709
certainly not on a semester by semester basis,

674
00:18:14.290 --> 00:18:14.709
um,

675
00:18:15.270 --> 00:18:15.650
to.

676
00:18:16.489 --> 00:18:17.520
To hassle them

677
00:18:17.859 --> 00:18:18.560
again and again

678
00:18:19.329 --> 00:18:20.910
to try to keep their grade point up,

679
00:18:21.219 --> 00:18:21.800
so,

680
00:18:22.280 --> 00:18:22.530
um,

681
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:23.699
it turned out that.

682
00:18:26.170 --> 00:18:29.920
This delegation thought they interpreted my change in rules

683
00:18:30.219 --> 00:18:31.579
as softening the rules,

684
00:18:31.660 --> 00:18:31.939
and I said,

685
00:18:32.020 --> 00:18:32.140
no,

686
00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:33.660
I'm actually hardening them.

687
00:18:34.099 --> 00:18:35.180
It's going to be harder to get in,

688
00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:38.430
but we're going to trust the students to work hard once they're in.

689
00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:40.160
So that had happened already

690
00:18:41.619 --> 00:18:43.719
by the time the first semester was over.

691
00:18:44.989 --> 00:18:45.619
Now,

692
00:18:46.150 --> 00:18:46.989
what was your question,

693
00:18:47.189 --> 00:18:47.829
Stephanie?

694
00:18:48.150 --> 00:18:48.430
Well,

695
00:18:48.550 --> 00:18:51.859
my question was about ways that you matured the human event,

696
00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:54.969
but let's pause on that for a second and follow up

697
00:18:55.349 --> 00:18:57.689
on what you were just saying about how

698
00:18:58.069 --> 00:18:58.910
you made it.

699
00:18:59.910 --> 00:19:00.760
Harder to get in,

700
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.500
but then giving people the space to have

701
00:19:04.520 --> 00:19:05.270
Spread their wings,

702
00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:05.849
as you put it,

703
00:19:05.930 --> 00:19:07.489
to have an off semester,

704
00:19:07.569 --> 00:19:10.430
perhaps to have some ups and downs in their life before

705
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:12.189
they felt in peril

706
00:19:12.530 --> 00:19:15.260
about being able to stay and bear it.

707
00:19:15.489 --> 00:19:17.189
I think this brings up the question

708
00:19:17.770 --> 00:19:18.270
of

709
00:19:18.530 --> 00:19:20.239
the size of the student

710
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:22.829
population when you joined versus.

711
00:19:23.609 --> 00:19:24.290
When you left,

712
00:19:24.369 --> 00:19:25.969
you mentioned the size of the faculty,

713
00:19:26.050 --> 00:19:26.949
but perhaps

714
00:19:27.569 --> 00:19:28.829
before we get into

715
00:19:28.969 --> 00:19:29.430
the

716
00:19:29.689 --> 00:19:30.949
nature and

717
00:19:31.209 --> 00:19:32.880
value of the human event,

718
00:19:33.209 --> 00:19:36.750
you could expand more on how those earlier shifts

719
00:19:37.010 --> 00:19:39.920
you made around admissions or retention

720
00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:41.030
affected

721
00:19:41.170 --> 00:19:42.109
the college.

722
00:19:42.729 --> 00:19:43.069
Yeah,

723
00:19:43.250 --> 00:19:43.520
well,

724
00:19:43.609 --> 00:19:43.719
it,

725
00:19:43.810 --> 00:19:44.010
it,

726
00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:46.469
I wanted to change the spirit of the college

727
00:19:46.609 --> 00:19:48.030
to be one in which

728
00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.349
To be one more like a Swarthmore or a Williams or an Amherst where students

729
00:19:52.979 --> 00:19:55.290
tried very hard to do the best job they could to get in,

730
00:19:55.369 --> 00:19:56.089
but once they were in,

731
00:19:56.170 --> 00:19:56.520
they were,

732
00:19:56.650 --> 00:19:57.229
they were,

733
00:19:57.689 --> 00:19:58.229
they were

734
00:19:58.530 --> 00:19:59.510
supported and,

735
00:19:59.810 --> 00:20:02.349
and encouraged to take their own path

736
00:20:02.609 --> 00:20:06.319
and not be so cognizant of what exactly their GPA was.

737
00:20:06.609 --> 00:20:07.290
It turned out,

738
00:20:07.589 --> 00:20:07.599
we,

739
00:20:07.849 --> 00:20:07.859
we,

740
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.709
we found out that there were very few bar students who ever had a GPA below a B,

741
00:20:12.280 --> 00:20:13.849
a 3.0 anyway.

742
00:20:15.140 --> 00:20:16.660
And we decided to

743
00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:18.930
not really have a bottom,

744
00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:19.390
uh,

745
00:20:19.569 --> 00:20:20.069
a bottom,

746
00:20:20.270 --> 00:20:22.000
a lowest GPA

747
00:20:23.459 --> 00:20:25.449
below which a student could not get in

748
00:20:25.630 --> 00:20:26.229
from high school,

749
00:20:26.390 --> 00:20:26.790
say.

750
00:20:27.349 --> 00:20:27.849
We wanted,

751
00:20:27.989 --> 00:20:28.180
so,

752
00:20:28.310 --> 00:20:28.750
so we were,

753
00:20:28.829 --> 00:20:29.619
we were looking,

754
00:20:29.760 --> 00:20:29.859
we,

755
00:20:29.949 --> 00:20:31.109
we changed the

756
00:20:31.589 --> 00:20:33.939
admissions application to have more essays,

757
00:20:34.310 --> 00:20:35.969
more chances to,

758
00:20:36.310 --> 00:20:36.619
more,

759
00:20:36.949 --> 00:20:39.020
more reliance on some of the um

760
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.209
Teachers that they had in high school,

761
00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:41.410
which,

762
00:20:41.739 --> 00:20:41.869
which,

763
00:20:42.469 --> 00:20:43.790
which I worked out with

764
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:45.050
Keith Suthergill,

765
00:20:45.089 --> 00:20:49.189
who became the dean of admissions or the director of admissions for Barrett.

766
00:20:49.650 --> 00:20:50.050
Um,

767
00:20:51.300 --> 00:20:51.709
But

768
00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:53.329
We,

769
00:20:54.239 --> 00:20:54.670
that was just,

770
00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:56.540
those are just part of the things we did.

771
00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:57.670
We also,

772
00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:58.260
um,

773
00:20:58.869 --> 00:20:59.000
we're,

774
00:20:59.040 --> 00:20:59.959
we're looking at.

775
00:21:01.489 --> 00:21:02.130
The

776
00:21:02.459 --> 00:21:03.339
human event.

777
00:21:04.219 --> 00:21:04.800
And,

778
00:21:05.060 --> 00:21:05.500
and what,

779
00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:06.540
what it stood for,

780
00:21:06.819 --> 00:21:10.359
and it took me a while to get that because when I first came out for an interview,

781
00:21:10.660 --> 00:21:12.339
when I was one of 3 final candidates,

782
00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:13.699
they had me go to a human event class.

783
00:21:13.780 --> 00:21:15.560
I went to Jackie Scott Lynch's

784
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:16.599
class

785
00:21:16.939 --> 00:21:19.260
and I was bowled over by how good the students were.

786
00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:20.170
I had just,

787
00:21:20.420 --> 00:21:23.670
I was teaching an advanced seminar at Swarthmore at the time,

788
00:21:23.780 --> 00:21:24.229
and

789
00:21:24.540 --> 00:21:26.599
students were easily as good as Swarthmore students,

790
00:21:26.609 --> 00:21:29.160
and Jackie was masterful at running that class.

791
00:21:30.030 --> 00:21:32.709
So I knew that the human event had really a good core,

792
00:21:32.790 --> 00:21:35.229
but when I looked at the qualifications of the faculty,

793
00:21:35.430 --> 00:21:37.989
they were almost all humanities related faculty,

794
00:21:38.390 --> 00:21:39.589
and Peggy and I,

795
00:21:39.670 --> 00:21:40.510
I was a biologist,

796
00:21:40.630 --> 00:21:41.750
Peggy was an anthropologist,

797
00:21:41.989 --> 00:21:43.550
we thought it would be good to have

798
00:21:43.869 --> 00:21:44.660
some faculty who,

799
00:21:44.699 --> 00:21:46.550
even though they were teaching the human event,

800
00:21:47.140 --> 00:21:49.160
And teaching great ideas humans have had.

801
00:21:49.959 --> 00:21:51.680
Since the beginning of recorded history to the present,

802
00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:52.099
which,

803
00:21:52.109 --> 00:21:55.380
which was sort of the way of describing a human event,

804
00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.900
it would be good to have their backgrounds and their knowledge be

805
00:21:59.160 --> 00:21:59.939
from different

806
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.040
PhD origins,

807
00:22:02.520 --> 00:22:06.310
so we would have more social scientists and more natural scientists.

808
00:22:06.760 --> 00:22:07.209
So

809
00:22:07.520 --> 00:22:07.869
when,

810
00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:08.859
when we talk about

811
00:22:09.239 --> 00:22:10.910
maturing the human event,

812
00:22:11.719 --> 00:22:14.680
we didn't want to change the basic structure of it because Ted

813
00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.859
Humphrey had done a great job of installing a great structure.

814
00:22:18.729 --> 00:22:19.329
Um,

815
00:22:19.770 --> 00:22:19.969
and,

816
00:22:20.089 --> 00:22:21.709
and that structure included,

817
00:22:22.250 --> 00:22:22.630
um,

818
00:22:23.290 --> 00:22:26.030
the faculty members' own ideas of what the best

819
00:22:26.290 --> 00:22:29.010
works were from the beginning of recorded history to,

820
00:22:29.109 --> 00:22:30.170
to the Renaissance or so,

821
00:22:30.209 --> 00:22:31.760
and then the Renaissance to the present in the,

822
00:22:31.810 --> 00:22:33.050
in the second semester,

823
00:22:33.489 --> 00:22:34.209
but also,

824
00:22:34.290 --> 00:22:34.770
um,

825
00:22:35.780 --> 00:22:37.609
A chronological sequence.

826
00:22:38.939 --> 00:22:39.540
And,

827
00:22:39.719 --> 00:22:40.219
and

828
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:40.410
we,

829
00:22:40.469 --> 00:22:41.750
we knew that that.

830
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.599
The background of the faculty member couldn't

831
00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:46.719
help but affect how they taught something,

832
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:48.770
so even when they were teaching the same,

833
00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:52.050
same thing like Charles Darwin's Origin of Species or,

834
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:53.760
or Dante,

835
00:22:54.199 --> 00:22:55.640
they would have different takes on it,

836
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.359
and we thought that was a healthy way to have the human event be,

837
00:22:58.520 --> 00:22:59.140
be taught.

838
00:22:59.469 --> 00:23:02.160
And we also knew that students would find out in advance

839
00:23:02.540 --> 00:23:04.619
who the teachers were sort of sympathetic

840
00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:07.260
in their areas of expertise to the student,

841
00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:08.459
each individual student,

842
00:23:08.540 --> 00:23:11.260
and hunt them out and try to get in their sections too,

843
00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:13.280
although that didn't always work because

844
00:23:13.650 --> 00:23:14.040
often

845
00:23:14.699 --> 00:23:16.819
students who had a good time with the professor

846
00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:20.619
when they were randomly placed as a first semester freshman

847
00:23:20.939 --> 00:23:23.160
wanted to stay with that person just because they knew them,

848
00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:26.339
but it did help expand it to quite an extent.

849
00:23:26.790 --> 00:23:27.310
And we,

850
00:23:27.550 --> 00:23:29.979
we needed to expand the number of faculty because

851
00:23:29.979 --> 00:23:33.310
we went from 24 or 500 total students,

852
00:23:33.869 --> 00:23:36.890
which meant something like an entering class of 500

853
00:23:37.390 --> 00:23:37.869
to

854
00:23:38.270 --> 00:23:39.650
when I came in 003,

855
00:23:40.030 --> 00:23:43.170
to a total of over 7000 honor students when I left,

856
00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:46.849
where we were having an entering class of 11,800 or so.

857
00:23:47.609 --> 00:23:49.089
It's really quite amazing,

858
00:23:49.369 --> 00:23:50.130
quite amazing change,

859
00:23:50.209 --> 00:23:50.609
but

860
00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:52.079
one of the,

861
00:23:52.089 --> 00:23:56.030
one of the main things I had to proselytize for with the provost and the president was

862
00:23:56.170 --> 00:23:58.030
to keep the ratios

863
00:23:58.329 --> 00:24:01.089
of students to faculty in each human events section

864
00:24:01.369 --> 00:24:02.650
the same through all those years,

865
00:24:02.729 --> 00:24:03.079
which meant,

866
00:24:03.089 --> 00:24:03.439
of course,

867
00:24:03.609 --> 00:24:05.170
hiring a lot more faculty.

868
00:24:07.180 --> 00:24:07.939
Yeah,

869
00:24:08.459 --> 00:24:08.880
so,

870
00:24:09.670 --> 00:24:12.329
It also means needing more space.

871
00:24:12.910 --> 00:24:13.579
So,

872
00:24:14.069 --> 00:24:15.219
before we move on to space,

873
00:24:15.270 --> 00:24:20.010
I guess I would comment that in my experience teaching the human event,

874
00:24:20.430 --> 00:24:24.910
I would say that building on the foundations of the people that went before us,

875
00:24:25.410 --> 00:24:28.369
it was a challenge the first

876
00:24:28.550 --> 00:24:29.170
year or two,

877
00:24:29.270 --> 00:24:31.030
but when you really leaned into it,

878
00:24:31.270 --> 00:24:32.270
it helped.

879
00:24:33.040 --> 00:24:34.270
The faculty member grow

880
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.099
in amazing ways as well

881
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:39.920
as we learned from each other on that hallway

882
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.540
about different texts that we might include and,

883
00:24:42.959 --> 00:24:44.260
and largely

884
00:24:44.500 --> 00:24:45.640
being chronological,

885
00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:46.959
maybe not perfectly so,

886
00:24:47.040 --> 00:24:48.540
but it really did help

887
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:50.890
students get the idea of a,

888
00:24:51.069 --> 00:24:53.079
a general arc of the human event.

889
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:55.060
It's kind of built in the name

890
00:24:55.520 --> 00:24:57.180
when you start early and

891
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:58.199
end in modern,

892
00:24:58.280 --> 00:24:59.880
so I think the founding.

893
00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:01.130
Um,

894
00:25:01.349 --> 00:25:02.689
thinkers on this

895
00:25:02.790 --> 00:25:05.810
put together something that helped with the success

896
00:25:06.069 --> 00:25:07.209
of the college.

897
00:25:07.479 --> 00:25:09.050
Do you have experience

898
00:25:09.229 --> 00:25:11.650
with that as an administrator in terms of,

899
00:25:12.189 --> 00:25:12.729
of

900
00:25:13.069 --> 00:25:13.729
people

901
00:25:14.349 --> 00:25:16.770
considering the human event a key component?

902
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:17.550
Well,

903
00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:17.959
sure,

904
00:25:18.060 --> 00:25:18.369
I mean,

905
00:25:18.709 --> 00:25:19.609
first of all,

906
00:25:20.170 --> 00:25:20.689
um,

907
00:25:20.910 --> 00:25:22.250
it turned out that

908
00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:26.099
That having everyone along the same hallway,

909
00:25:26.219 --> 00:25:26.880
so to speak,

910
00:25:27.219 --> 00:25:28.060
by the time you came,

911
00:25:28.209 --> 00:25:28.569
Stephanie,

912
00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:28.959
I guess,

913
00:25:29.060 --> 00:25:29.400
um,

914
00:25:29.660 --> 00:25:32.060
there was a modern hallway with all the offices off of it,

915
00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:32.380
but there was,

916
00:25:32.459 --> 00:25:36.099
there was a long hallway in the old building too that was there when I was,

917
00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:38.400
when I first came in '03 and '04,

918
00:25:38.959 --> 00:25:39.239
um,

919
00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:41.619
that had all the faculty offices together,

920
00:25:41.739 --> 00:25:42.040
so

921
00:25:42.140 --> 00:25:42.290
we,

922
00:25:42.459 --> 00:25:43.089
there was a,

923
00:25:43.780 --> 00:25:44.859
the structure of the hall.

924
00:25:44.900 --> 00:25:46.099
I don't know if this was planned,

925
00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:47.540
or if it was just the building that,

926
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:47.699
that,

927
00:25:47.780 --> 00:25:47.829
that,

928
00:25:47.910 --> 00:25:50.680
that Ted inherited when he moved the honors college to the

929
00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:53.199
To the uh campus where it was

930
00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:53.979
when I came,

931
00:25:54.020 --> 00:25:54.859
which was next to,

932
00:25:55.459 --> 00:25:55.650
to,

933
00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:56.079
um,

934
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:57.209
Gammi Auditorium,

935
00:25:57.459 --> 00:25:57.920
but

936
00:25:58.500 --> 00:25:59.439
whatever it was,

937
00:26:00.380 --> 00:26:00.819
whether that,

938
00:26:00.979 --> 00:26:02.140
whether he planned that or not,

939
00:26:02.219 --> 00:26:04.599
the faculty being along the same hall was a huge

940
00:26:05.619 --> 00:26:06.819
addition and a good,

941
00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:07.599
a good

942
00:26:08.849 --> 00:26:11.339
situation for them because it did encourage them to talk to each other and,

943
00:26:11.439 --> 00:26:12.540
and they have ever since,

944
00:26:12.619 --> 00:26:13.300
and I think that's,

945
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:14.699
that was sort of important.

946
00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:16.280
The other thing I wanted to say about

947
00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:17.780
the human event though is that

948
00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:19.760
different faculty came in with different,

949
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:22.739
Different goals for their,

950
00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:23.880
for their careers.

951
00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:27.650
They all had to understand what their primary job

952
00:26:27.650 --> 00:26:30.199
was to teach the human event and to be,

953
00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:31.099
in essence,

954
00:26:31.260 --> 00:26:33.599
another layer that was 4 years long

955
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:37.310
of advisors to be students who came in

956
00:26:37.540 --> 00:26:38.880
and stayed for 4 years

957
00:26:39.060 --> 00:26:40.160
through to their senior year.

958
00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:41.329
It wasn't,

959
00:26:41.420 --> 00:26:43.479
it's never been a formal advising

960
00:26:43.739 --> 00:26:44.170
capacity,

961
00:26:44.219 --> 00:26:44.300
but,

962
00:26:44.449 --> 00:26:46.619
but when a student comes in and takes a human event,

963
00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:47.979
they bond with,

964
00:26:48.209 --> 00:26:49.650
hopefully they would bond with the.

965
00:26:50.199 --> 00:26:51.380
The faculty member

966
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.880
and and use them as an

967
00:26:54.040 --> 00:26:54.520
an.

968
00:26:55.439 --> 00:26:57.739
A good advisor for other years,

969
00:26:57.760 --> 00:27:02.300
even though they weren't their formal honors advisor or their formal major advisor

970
00:27:02.719 --> 00:27:06.780
in the majors that they went into in the big outside university,

971
00:27:07.239 --> 00:27:07.709
but

972
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:10.280
the faculty could vary quite a bit.

973
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:10.900
We had

974
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:13.500
some faculty members who came in and wanted to do research

975
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:14.630
and they

976
00:27:15.630 --> 00:27:18.040
They met their obligations to the human event.

977
00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:18.900
They,

978
00:27:19.030 --> 00:27:21.290
they would stack them all in 2 days.

979
00:27:21.869 --> 00:27:22.939
They would teach 4 sections,

980
00:27:22.989 --> 00:27:24.599
3 or 4 sections of a human event

981
00:27:24.869 --> 00:27:28.000
on Monday and 3 or 4 on Wednesday or Tuesday and Thursday.

982
00:27:29.290 --> 00:27:31.849
And then have the other 5 days of the week to themselves,

983
00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:32.869
and they could either,

984
00:27:33.290 --> 00:27:33.439
some,

985
00:27:33.569 --> 00:27:34.530
some of the faculty

986
00:27:35.369 --> 00:27:36.910
realized that they would be promoted

987
00:27:37.209 --> 00:27:37.410
and,

988
00:27:37.489 --> 00:27:38.030
and given

989
00:27:38.969 --> 00:27:40.089
higher and higher salaries,

990
00:27:40.199 --> 00:27:41.170
no matter what they did.

991
00:27:42.189 --> 00:27:42.380
With their,

992
00:27:42.390 --> 00:27:45.150
with their non in class time as long as they

993
00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:48.020
got very good teaching ratings because that's what really mattered.

994
00:27:48.310 --> 00:27:48.709
But

995
00:27:48.989 --> 00:27:49.609
others

996
00:27:50.229 --> 00:27:51.579
just filled their

997
00:27:51.689 --> 00:27:52.930
their their extra time

998
00:27:53.189 --> 00:27:53.750
with research.

999
00:27:53.910 --> 00:27:55.550
They they they they they allied themselves

1000
00:27:55.550 --> 00:27:58.170
to departments in the bigger university outside.

1001
00:27:58.510 --> 00:27:59.530
They asked for support

1002
00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:02.689
to help pay for some of the instrumentation they were using.

1003
00:28:03.380 --> 00:28:03.910
And

1004
00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:05.410
I even had one guy

1005
00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:06.550
come in to see me and he said,

1006
00:28:06.619 --> 00:28:07.030
you know,

1007
00:28:07.969 --> 00:28:09.459
He had a German accent.

1008
00:28:09.930 --> 00:28:10.209
Uh,

1009
00:28:10.410 --> 00:28:11.869
this is Akim Hermann,

1010
00:28:12.290 --> 00:28:13.410
but I don't know if you remember him.

1011
00:28:13.579 --> 00:28:14.790
Did you do.

1012
00:28:15.609 --> 00:28:17.310
He came in one time and said,

1013
00:28:17.770 --> 00:28:18.050
you know,

1014
00:28:18.170 --> 00:28:18.489
Mark,

1015
00:28:18.739 --> 00:28:20.050
this is really quite easy.

1016
00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:21.790
I can do lots of research

1017
00:28:22.369 --> 00:28:22.569
in,

1018
00:28:22.670 --> 00:28:24.609
in my spare time and I still can teach,

1019
00:28:24.619 --> 00:28:25.069
and he,

1020
00:28:25.489 --> 00:28:25.680
he,

1021
00:28:25.770 --> 00:28:27.550
he had some of the,

1022
00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:28.550
well,

1023
00:28:28.770 --> 00:28:30.290
he had lower teaching ratings,

1024
00:28:30.329 --> 00:28:30.689
but the,

1025
00:28:30.810 --> 00:28:35.670
but the lowest rating of any faculty member at Barre was higher than the average

1026
00:28:36.130 --> 00:28:36.849
teaching rating for,

1027
00:28:36.969 --> 00:28:37.170
for,

1028
00:28:37.329 --> 00:28:40.229
for instructors or lecturers in the whole university.

1029
00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:41.739
In other words,

1030
00:28:41.810 --> 00:28:43.439
if you looked at the average rating for

1031
00:28:43.609 --> 00:28:45.680
lecturers in the big ASU,

1032
00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:46.920
even

1033
00:28:47.219 --> 00:28:48.199
the lowest rated

1034
00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:49.819
faculty member at Barrett was,

1035
00:28:49.869 --> 00:28:51.060
was higher rated than,

1036
00:28:51.280 --> 00:28:51.439
than

1037
00:28:52.180 --> 00:28:52.819
the average,

1038
00:28:52.910 --> 00:28:53.380
and

1039
00:28:53.699 --> 00:28:54.349
in fact they,

1040
00:28:54.500 --> 00:28:54.650
they,

1041
00:28:54.780 --> 00:28:56.380
they bunched together all the time,

1042
00:28:56.699 --> 00:28:57.400
very closely,

1043
00:28:57.500 --> 00:28:58.680
all at the top of the.

1044
00:28:59.380 --> 00:29:00.459
Of the rating scale.

1045
00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:01.020
So,

1046
00:29:01.469 --> 00:29:02.079
so in other words,

1047
00:29:02.260 --> 00:29:02.579
what Aki,

1048
00:29:03.219 --> 00:29:03.500
what Dr.

1049
00:29:03.619 --> 00:29:04.099
Herman

1050
00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:06.300
illustrated was you could do research,

1051
00:29:06.369 --> 00:29:07.209
and he did do research.

1052
00:29:07.260 --> 00:29:08.199
He published research

1053
00:29:09.040 --> 00:29:09.290
with,

1054
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:09.430
with,

1055
00:29:09.439 --> 00:29:13.489
with collaborating faculty in larger departments outside Barrett,

1056
00:29:13.739 --> 00:29:14.760
but he still met

1057
00:29:14.979 --> 00:29:16.000
the conditions

1058
00:29:16.339 --> 00:29:17.089
of his employment,

1059
00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:18.239
which included

1060
00:29:19.709 --> 00:29:20.430
She included

1061
00:29:21.300 --> 00:29:23.130
The human event and he still enjoyed teaching it,

1062
00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:23.760
I think

1063
00:29:24.260 --> 00:29:26.160
it was good to have him along with some

1064
00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:27.979
superhumanists on the,

1065
00:29:28.459 --> 00:29:30.439
on the commit on the faculty

1066
00:29:30.949 --> 00:29:31.650
who spent their,

1067
00:29:31.780 --> 00:29:33.000
their extra time

1068
00:29:33.459 --> 00:29:33.979
planning,

1069
00:29:34.689 --> 00:29:38.760
reading and bringing in special speakers to enhance their knowledge of

1070
00:29:39.890 --> 00:29:41.770
The books they were covering in the human event,

1071
00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:42.359
in other words,

1072
00:29:42.410 --> 00:29:43.530
doing all the homework,

1073
00:29:43.650 --> 00:29:44.300
so to speak,

1074
00:29:44.650 --> 00:29:46.209
that a family member would want to do.

1075
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.089
To be a good faculty member teaching the human event,

1076
00:29:49.209 --> 00:29:49.589
so

1077
00:29:49.930 --> 00:29:52.229
we allowed that kind of variation to happen.

1078
00:29:53.310 --> 00:29:54.160
Within the faculty,

1079
00:29:54.189 --> 00:29:55.849
and I think that was also healthy.

1080
00:29:56.270 --> 00:29:56.420
Oh,

1081
00:29:56.469 --> 00:29:58.050
I do think it's healthy.

1082
00:29:58.430 --> 00:29:59.089
Um,

1083
00:29:59.589 --> 00:30:00.170
I think

1084
00:30:00.459 --> 00:30:01.660
many people

1085
00:30:01.949 --> 00:30:02.630
chose

1086
00:30:02.869 --> 00:30:03.530
to

1087
00:30:03.910 --> 00:30:06.170
still choose to focus exclusively

1088
00:30:06.459 --> 00:30:07.219
on their teaching,

1089
00:30:07.229 --> 00:30:09.650
and depending on how they approach

1090
00:30:10.130 --> 00:30:11.270
grading or feedback,

1091
00:30:11.390 --> 00:30:15.609
they may have quite a bit less quotequote extra time than some of their

1092
00:30:16.329 --> 00:30:17.060
colleagues,

1093
00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:18.170
but overall,

1094
00:30:18.430 --> 00:30:19.050
I think

1095
00:30:19.239 --> 00:30:20.410
letting people

1096
00:30:23.489 --> 00:30:26.280
Adjust what they do to help keep their

1097
00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:28.079
morale and

1098
00:30:28.689 --> 00:30:30.540
scholarship and spiritual

1099
00:30:31.579 --> 00:30:34.660
love for this job is a win-win for students,

1100
00:30:34.739 --> 00:30:35.219
faculty,

1101
00:30:35.300 --> 00:30:36.560
and administrators.

1102
00:30:36.819 --> 00:30:37.599
Absolutely,

1103
00:30:37.739 --> 00:30:38.500
absolutely.

1104
00:30:38.780 --> 00:30:41.300
I guess what I was thinking about though is things

1105
00:30:41.300 --> 00:30:44.699
I've heard you mention in the past of how different.

1106
00:30:45.420 --> 00:30:49.160
Universities nationally and internationally have

1107
00:30:49.900 --> 00:30:51.459
reached out to Barrett,

1108
00:30:52.060 --> 00:30:53.650
seeing it as a,

1109
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:54.869
an example,

1110
00:30:54.939 --> 00:30:58.119
as an exemplar of a successful honors college,

1111
00:30:58.420 --> 00:30:59.000
and

1112
00:30:59.260 --> 00:30:59.760
that

1113
00:31:00.060 --> 00:31:05.300
having core faculty as opposed to borrowing from other units or that blend

1114
00:31:05.569 --> 00:31:09.219
that Barrett achieved with core faculty teaching

1115
00:31:09.219 --> 00:31:11.959
the human event and some senior seminars.

1116
00:31:12.729 --> 00:31:15.890
With some faculty in the larger university

1117
00:31:16.170 --> 00:31:18.359
covering many other honor sections,

1118
00:31:18.969 --> 00:31:23.369
that seems to be something that was a key ingredient for the success,

1119
00:31:23.689 --> 00:31:26.329
but I think you also mentioned that the human event

1120
00:31:26.569 --> 00:31:28.030
sequence itself

1121
00:31:28.489 --> 00:31:29.109
was

1122
00:31:29.770 --> 00:31:31.359
key in what some of the

1123
00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:34.250
Lookers wanted to learn from

1124
00:31:34.790 --> 00:31:35.380
Barrett.

1125
00:31:36.829 --> 00:31:37.349
What some of,

1126
00:31:37.630 --> 00:31:39.109
some of who wanted to learn from Barrett,

1127
00:31:39.219 --> 00:31:40.150
what was the word you said?

1128
00:31:40.229 --> 00:31:41.270
I said lookers,

1129
00:31:41.430 --> 00:31:41.670
the people

1130
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:42.920
came

1131
00:31:43.030 --> 00:31:46.709
to you for advice about starting honors colleges.

1132
00:31:47.189 --> 00:31:47.469
Yes,

1133
00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:47.750
they,

1134
00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:48.670
they did.

1135
00:31:49.630 --> 00:31:51.650
They were intrigued by the idea of

1136
00:31:51.910 --> 00:31:53.680
our own faculty paid.

1137
00:31:54.189 --> 00:31:56.229
To teach a particular course which was,

1138
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:57.449
which was becoming

1139
00:31:57.589 --> 00:31:58.949
during the 20 years I was there,

1140
00:31:58.989 --> 00:31:59.810
increasingly

1141
00:32:00.069 --> 00:32:01.630
viewed as really important for,

1142
00:32:01.790 --> 00:32:02.250
for

1143
00:32:02.670 --> 00:32:03.790
any student in the world,

1144
00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:05.020
not just American students,

1145
00:32:05.030 --> 00:32:06.550
but particularly American students,

1146
00:32:06.790 --> 00:32:08.329
because they weren't learning much about

1147
00:32:09.069 --> 00:32:09.430
history

1148
00:32:09.750 --> 00:32:11.089
and they weren't learning much

1149
00:32:11.390 --> 00:32:12.569
about how to write.

1150
00:32:14.069 --> 00:32:14.910
And when I first came,

1151
00:32:14.959 --> 00:32:16.239
there was a lot of complaints in the

1152
00:32:16.239 --> 00:32:19.979
national media about how nobody could write well,

1153
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:20.819
and

1154
00:32:21.410 --> 00:32:21.910
And then,

1155
00:32:21.969 --> 00:32:23.869
and then that was combined with the sense that,

1156
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:24.150
that,

1157
00:32:24.270 --> 00:32:24.630
that

1158
00:32:25.089 --> 00:32:27.770
students coming out of college didn't have a good sense of history either,

1159
00:32:27.849 --> 00:32:27.969
and,

1160
00:32:28.060 --> 00:32:30.989
and the human event teaches both history and great writing,

1161
00:32:31.170 --> 00:32:31.449
particularly,

1162
00:32:31.650 --> 00:32:33.550
particularly of course great writing because

1163
00:32:34.290 --> 00:32:34.729
of the,

1164
00:32:34.849 --> 00:32:35.329
the,

1165
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:35.359
the,

1166
00:32:35.369 --> 00:32:37.109
the whole setup of the human event with

1167
00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:38.969
conversations in class.

1168
00:32:40.270 --> 00:32:42.290
Followed by submissions of

1169
00:32:43.030 --> 00:32:44.130
written works

1170
00:32:44.390 --> 00:32:45.209
that were all

1171
00:32:45.469 --> 00:32:48.410
judged and supported and

1172
00:32:49.109 --> 00:32:53.150
critiqued by by a faculty member whose main job was to do

1173
00:32:53.150 --> 00:32:57.150
that exact job was to lead discussions in class and critique papers.

1174
00:32:57.550 --> 00:32:57.810
So

1175
00:32:58.349 --> 00:32:59.849
that was a unique setup.

1176
00:33:00.060 --> 00:33:00.849
It shouldn't have been,

1177
00:33:00.910 --> 00:33:02.209
but it was a unique setup.

1178
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:03.199
In the,

1179
00:33:03.250 --> 00:33:05.079
in the country and even in the world.

1180
00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:05.829
So

1181
00:33:06.219 --> 00:33:11.560
this coincided with also universities around the world realizing and in the US too,

1182
00:33:11.619 --> 00:33:12.380
particularly

1183
00:33:12.969 --> 00:33:13.420
that

1184
00:33:13.650 --> 00:33:14.109
um

1185
00:33:14.689 --> 00:33:17.130
public universities had a lot of really good students in them,

1186
00:33:17.250 --> 00:33:18.510
really good students,

1187
00:33:18.969 --> 00:33:19.380
and

1188
00:33:20.020 --> 00:33:21.989
there was a whole cohort of students who

1189
00:33:22.449 --> 00:33:26.189
could have gotten into or did get into an Ivy or a Stanford sort of place.

1190
00:33:27.020 --> 00:33:27.560
And yet

1191
00:33:27.739 --> 00:33:28.000
came

1192
00:33:28.540 --> 00:33:29.890
to ASU

1193
00:33:30.260 --> 00:33:30.739
for a reason.

1194
00:33:30.819 --> 00:33:32.140
Either their mother had cancer,

1195
00:33:32.219 --> 00:33:33.319
they wanted to be near home,

1196
00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:34.420
or they just,

1197
00:33:34.540 --> 00:33:35.410
they just wanted to,

1198
00:33:35.780 --> 00:33:40.930
they were an athlete in a sport that only a big university had,

1199
00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:45.890
or that they wanted to major in one of the 400 choices of majors

1200
00:33:46.300 --> 00:33:49.380
instead of just the 25 choices that the small college has.

1201
00:33:49.780 --> 00:33:50.839
So for example,

1202
00:33:51.020 --> 00:33:51.380
um,

1203
00:33:52.260 --> 00:33:53.390
One of my sons

1204
00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:56.900
who was at Harvard wanted to be a major in Japanese.

1205
00:33:57.219 --> 00:33:58.660
There is no major in Japanese at Harvard,

1206
00:33:58.699 --> 00:33:59.689
you can't do that.

1207
00:34:00.020 --> 00:34:00.880
But here

1208
00:34:01.170 --> 00:34:02.579
at ASU you can do that.

1209
00:34:02.859 --> 00:34:04.339
You can be a major in violin,

1210
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:04.979
performance.

1211
00:34:05.060 --> 00:34:05.369
There's

1212
00:34:05.810 --> 00:34:08.449
there's an immense variety of majors.

1213
00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:10.530
So as students,

1214
00:34:11.020 --> 00:34:11.030
but,

1215
00:34:11.060 --> 00:34:13.199
but lots of those students who

1216
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:15.199
were coming to the public didn't have

1217
00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:19.800
the structure to really let their minds go wild

1218
00:34:20.100 --> 00:34:21.820
and spread their wings intellectually.

1219
00:34:22.388 --> 00:34:22.398
For

1220
00:34:23.059 --> 00:34:23.868
their basic training,

1221
00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:24.908
so the idea of

1222
00:34:25.549 --> 00:34:26.947
a an honors college,

1223
00:34:27.128 --> 00:34:27.447
b,

1224
00:34:27.708 --> 00:34:28.989
a course like the human event,

1225
00:34:29.069 --> 00:34:29.728
and C,

1226
00:34:30.108 --> 00:34:32.248
human event taught from the very first year,

1227
00:34:32.467 --> 00:34:33.789
it's another important

1228
00:34:34.029 --> 00:34:35.388
thing we haven't talked about yet,

1229
00:34:35.748 --> 00:34:36.947
but I think it's really important that the

1230
00:34:36.947 --> 00:34:39.529
human event is required during their first year.

1231
00:34:40.399 --> 00:34:41.219
Here and not,

1232
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:41.550
it's not,

1233
00:34:41.600 --> 00:34:43.060
it's not a capstone thing,

1234
00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:45.199
they fit into their

1235
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:46.100
other

1236
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:47.478
duties when they're a senior,

1237
00:34:47.520 --> 00:34:48.120
it's something they,

1238
00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:49.760
they get as background.

1239
00:34:50.830 --> 00:34:52.100
Foundation work.

1240
00:34:53.168 --> 00:34:53.290
So,

1241
00:34:53.449 --> 00:34:54.120
so it's they,

1242
00:34:54.208 --> 00:34:57.810
they get critiqued in their writing and their thinking and their way of thinking

1243
00:34:58.260 --> 00:34:58.939
early,

1244
00:34:59.449 --> 00:35:00.459
and they also make a,

1245
00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:01.689
make a faculty.

1246
00:35:02.580 --> 00:35:03.129
Friend

1247
00:35:03.469 --> 00:35:04.580
who can be an advisor,

1248
00:35:04.649 --> 00:35:04.840
uh,

1249
00:35:06.790 --> 00:35:06.810
an,

1250
00:35:06.820 --> 00:35:08.449
an informal advisor

1251
00:35:08.709 --> 00:35:10.850
for the next 3 years after the human event.

1252
00:35:11.699 --> 00:35:12.199
So,

1253
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:12.739
um,

1254
00:35:13.479 --> 00:35:14.239
For all those reasons,

1255
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:15.280
I thought it was a good.

1256
00:35:16.149 --> 00:35:17.330
A good structure.

1257
00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:18.500
And I think,

1258
00:35:18.790 --> 00:35:19.899
I think foreign,

1259
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:21.820
foreign universities thought so too,

1260
00:35:21.870 --> 00:35:22.429
because they,

1261
00:35:22.909 --> 00:35:23.830
they heard about it and they,

1262
00:35:23.949 --> 00:35:24.729
they came to visit

1263
00:35:25.790 --> 00:35:27.659
National University of Singapore,

1264
00:35:28.179 --> 00:35:29.489
Chengdu's University.

1265
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:31.469
Um,

1266
00:35:31.810 --> 00:35:33.129
from China and

1267
00:35:33.449 --> 00:35:33.729
others,

1268
00:35:33.810 --> 00:35:34.090
and they,

1269
00:35:34.169 --> 00:35:36.189
or they invited us over to talk about

1270
00:35:36.570 --> 00:35:36.889
our,

1271
00:35:37.050 --> 00:35:37.949
our structure.

1272
00:35:38.949 --> 00:35:39.580
In their

1273
00:35:39.919 --> 00:35:41.100
context sometimes.

1274
00:35:42.030 --> 00:35:44.209
You're completely right that

1275
00:35:44.629 --> 00:35:46.129
at least in my experience,

1276
00:35:46.350 --> 00:35:50.649
the human event students often stay in touch with their

1277
00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:56.129
first-year human event faculty as those kind of informal advisors asking

1278
00:35:56.550 --> 00:35:57.649
advice about

1279
00:35:58.270 --> 00:35:58.909
thesis,

1280
00:35:59.179 --> 00:36:03.290
directions or careers or graduate school or all kinds of things,

1281
00:36:03.310 --> 00:36:05.030
and even if we can't answer them,

1282
00:36:05.070 --> 00:36:06.270
we know who to point them to.

1283
00:36:06.389 --> 00:36:07.889
So there's several levels

1284
00:36:08.270 --> 00:36:08.929
of

1285
00:36:09.489 --> 00:36:13.909
Of wrap-around care for these students once they get here.

1286
00:36:14.209 --> 00:36:15.310
And yeah,

1287
00:36:15.750 --> 00:36:17.290
and the human events very unique.

1288
00:36:17.449 --> 00:36:18.830
I tell my students it's

1289
00:36:19.129 --> 00:36:20.399
may use literature,

1290
00:36:20.479 --> 00:36:22.050
but it's not a literature class.

1291
00:36:22.129 --> 00:36:23.189
It may have some

1292
00:36:23.489 --> 00:36:24.500
sacred texts in it,

1293
00:36:24.570 --> 00:36:27.070
but it's not religious studies or political

1294
00:36:27.310 --> 00:36:28.040
treatises,

1295
00:36:28.090 --> 00:36:28.729
but it's not.

1296
00:36:29.479 --> 00:36:30.679
A political science class,

1297
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:32.389
it really is interdisciplinary,

1298
00:36:32.399 --> 00:36:32.939
and they

1299
00:36:33.669 --> 00:36:35.100
learn to engage in

1300
00:36:35.399 --> 00:36:37.260
polite civil discourse

1301
00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:38.199
to

1302
00:36:38.439 --> 00:36:40.060
use evidence-based.

1303
00:36:41.040 --> 00:36:45.310
Exploration of these texts and learn from each other's perspectives and how to

1304
00:36:45.530 --> 00:36:47.129
disagree in a civil way,

1305
00:36:47.489 --> 00:36:49.030
which Ted Humphrey

1306
00:36:49.449 --> 00:36:50.510
often said

1307
00:36:50.810 --> 00:36:53.830
the core of the human event had to do with

1308
00:36:54.530 --> 00:36:55.330
developing.

1309
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:58.209
Citizens as much as

1310
00:36:58.750 --> 00:37:01.810
as students and of course all in the service of being

1311
00:37:02.189 --> 00:37:03.169
better humans.

1312
00:37:04.040 --> 00:37:04.580
Yeah,

1313
00:37:04.830 --> 00:37:05.209
yep,

1314
00:37:05.479 --> 00:37:06.219
I agree.

1315
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:07.350
So,

1316
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:09.080
in terms of space,

1317
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:10.419
you talked about

1318
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:11.219
the

1319
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:14.659
space that existed when you arrived at Barrett.

1320
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:17.199
Perhaps you could talk a little bit about

1321
00:37:17.520 --> 00:37:20.100
the process in your role when Barrett moved

1322
00:37:20.469 --> 00:37:21.739
into the space

1323
00:37:22.040 --> 00:37:23.580
that it is now.

1324
00:37:25.570 --> 00:37:26.370
You mean how that,

1325
00:37:26.489 --> 00:37:28.310
how those decisions were made or

1326
00:37:28.530 --> 00:37:29.689
how we got there?

1327
00:37:30.010 --> 00:37:30.669
Yeah,

1328
00:37:31.330 --> 00:37:31.580
yeah,

1329
00:37:31.770 --> 00:37:32.149
well,

1330
00:37:32.409 --> 00:37:32.750
um,

1331
00:37:32.810 --> 00:37:32.889
yeah,

1332
00:37:33.010 --> 00:37:33.340
we were,

1333
00:37:33.449 --> 00:37:33.770
we were,

1334
00:37:33.979 --> 00:37:34.590
when I came,

1335
00:37:35.129 --> 00:37:35.209
you,

1336
00:37:35.330 --> 00:37:35.610
you know,

1337
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.929
Barrett had started before it was called Barrett

1338
00:37:37.929 --> 00:37:39.560
when it was just the honors college in,

1339
00:37:39.929 --> 00:37:41.030
in a single,

1340
00:37:41.590 --> 00:37:41.929
um,

1341
00:37:42.129 --> 00:37:43.159
square shaped,

1342
00:37:43.330 --> 00:37:44.989
sort of a fortress shaped

1343
00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:45.870
building,

1344
00:37:46.409 --> 00:37:46.830
uh,

1345
00:37:47.060 --> 00:37:48.070
elsewhere on campus

1346
00:37:48.729 --> 00:37:49.489
that had a central,

1347
00:37:49.530 --> 00:37:50.679
a single central courtyard,

1348
00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:52.270
it was like a single square.

1349
00:37:52.750 --> 00:37:55.929
Building with rooms around the edges and a central courtyard

1350
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.620
that had about 100 students or 200 students in it.

1351
00:38:00.560 --> 00:38:01.360
Ted Humphrey was,

1352
00:38:01.419 --> 00:38:02.870
was the founding dean and he,

1353
00:38:02.919 --> 00:38:04.300
he was critical in,

1354
00:38:04.389 --> 00:38:04.919
in

1355
00:38:05.149 --> 00:38:06.939
lobbying for and receiving.

1356
00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:08.419
The chance to,

1357
00:38:08.620 --> 00:38:10.300
to have a new campus which was on,

1358
00:38:10.479 --> 00:38:10.780
which is,

1359
00:38:10.899 --> 00:38:12.000
which is on

1360
00:38:12.169 --> 00:38:14.459
land that's called Center Complex now,

1361
00:38:14.899 --> 00:38:15.270
but,

1362
00:38:15.659 --> 00:38:16.239
and then he,

1363
00:38:16.350 --> 00:38:16.620
he,

1364
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:18.600
he moved into these dorms

1365
00:38:18.979 --> 00:38:19.429
in

1366
00:38:19.689 --> 00:38:20.290
Center Complex,

1367
00:38:20.340 --> 00:38:20.449
which,

1368
00:38:20.530 --> 00:38:22.560
which was a city block

1369
00:38:22.780 --> 00:38:24.459
next to Gambridge Auditorium and,

1370
00:38:24.520 --> 00:38:25.080
and,

1371
00:38:25.729 --> 00:38:27.360
and on one side and on the other side,

1372
00:38:27.500 --> 00:38:27.860
um,

1373
00:38:28.139 --> 00:38:29.820
a parking structure for ASU.

1374
00:38:30.820 --> 00:38:31.719
But um,

1375
00:38:32.100 --> 00:38:34.399
he then added dorms to those.

1376
00:38:34.879 --> 00:38:35.679
Existing dorms,

1377
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:36.479
he was able to,

1378
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:37.639
I don't know,

1379
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:39.510
I never heard the story of how he,

1380
00:38:40.370 --> 00:38:40.379
how,

1381
00:38:40.479 --> 00:38:42.899
whether the provost or the president voted

1382
00:38:43.350 --> 00:38:44.860
to give him the money to build

1383
00:38:45.399 --> 00:38:47.399
new dorms or or how he arranged that,

1384
00:38:47.479 --> 00:38:47.860
but

1385
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:49.149
he oversaw the,

1386
00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:49.699
the,

1387
00:38:49.969 --> 00:38:50.379
the

1388
00:38:50.510 --> 00:38:52.080
construction of new dorms.

1389
00:38:53.090 --> 00:38:54.030
New ish storms in the,

1390
00:38:54.080 --> 00:38:54.310
in the,

1391
00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:55.620
in the late 1990s

1392
00:38:56.120 --> 00:38:56.600
when he,

1393
00:38:56.719 --> 00:38:57.199
when they moved,

1394
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.739
I think they moved in 1995 or 106 or so into center complex and

1395
00:39:02.040 --> 00:39:04.860
the number of honors went up to about 800 beds

1396
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:06.300
in that complex.

1397
00:39:07.860 --> 00:39:08.340
So

1398
00:39:09.120 --> 00:39:09.830
Um,

1399
00:39:10.129 --> 00:39:10.330
that's,

1400
00:39:10.409 --> 00:39:12.090
that's in that complex,

1401
00:39:12.129 --> 00:39:12.959
there was one,

1402
00:39:13.489 --> 00:39:14.209
there was one building,

1403
00:39:14.290 --> 00:39:15.179
the Irish,

1404
00:39:15.489 --> 00:39:16.530
Irish Hall,

1405
00:39:16.879 --> 00:39:17.709
that housed

1406
00:39:17.929 --> 00:39:18.189
both

1407
00:39:18.449 --> 00:39:19.330
the faculty

1408
00:39:19.689 --> 00:39:23.229
along a single hallway up on the top of the 2nd floor,

1409
00:39:23.689 --> 00:39:25.070
and the administration

1410
00:39:25.489 --> 00:39:27.110
offices down the 1st floor.

1411
00:39:27.689 --> 00:39:28.399
So that was it,

1412
00:39:28.479 --> 00:39:28.570
and,

1413
00:39:28.649 --> 00:39:29.820
and there were something like,

1414
00:39:30.209 --> 00:39:32.389
I said there were 88 or 9 faculty,

1415
00:39:32.399 --> 00:39:33.290
and there were something like.

1416
00:39:33.989 --> 00:39:34.489
I don't know,

1417
00:39:34.669 --> 00:39:36.449
15 to 23

1418
00:39:36.830 --> 00:39:37.209
staff.

1419
00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:40.969
The total advising office for Barrett for these 20,

1420
00:39:42.330 --> 00:39:44.229
remember the 800 students were just the ones living there

1421
00:39:44.229 --> 00:39:46.260
and you only had to live there for one year.

1422
00:39:46.739 --> 00:39:47.060
So it was,

1423
00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:47.760
was

1424
00:39:49.270 --> 00:39:52.790
the total number of honor students was something like 2400 or 2800.

1425
00:39:53.100 --> 00:39:54.270
For all those honor students,

1426
00:39:54.310 --> 00:39:56.129
there was only two advisors

1427
00:39:56.270 --> 00:39:57.540
in the advising office,

1428
00:39:57.629 --> 00:39:59.370
and there was no required advising either.

1429
00:40:00.169 --> 00:40:02.370
So one of the other things I did right away was I

1430
00:40:02.889 --> 00:40:03.469
required

1431
00:40:03.649 --> 00:40:04.709
advising for,

1432
00:40:05.449 --> 00:40:08.629
for 3 times at least during their careers,

1433
00:40:09.370 --> 00:40:10.050
their freshman,

1434
00:40:10.290 --> 00:40:10.689
sophomore,

1435
00:40:10.790 --> 00:40:11.429
and then

1436
00:40:11.929 --> 00:40:12.729
their junior year,

1437
00:40:12.889 --> 00:40:13.139
so,

1438
00:40:13.330 --> 00:40:13.469
so,

1439
00:40:13.610 --> 00:40:13.929
so we,

1440
00:40:14.010 --> 00:40:15.530
we could give them advice.

1441
00:40:16.570 --> 00:40:17.090
About

1442
00:40:17.830 --> 00:40:19.179
courses to take and

1443
00:40:19.889 --> 00:40:20.209
subjects,

1444
00:40:20.489 --> 00:40:22.189
subjects for their senior thesis,

1445
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:23.110
for example,

1446
00:40:23.850 --> 00:40:24.219
um,

1447
00:40:24.449 --> 00:40:25.600
much more frequently and,

1448
00:40:25.649 --> 00:40:26.820
and in a required way,

1449
00:40:26.870 --> 00:40:29.010
so we had a better handle on what they were all doing.

1450
00:40:29.810 --> 00:40:30.379
Um

1451
00:40:31.179 --> 00:40:31.649
But

1452
00:40:33.739 --> 00:40:34.459
So

1453
00:40:34.659 --> 00:40:35.590
I know that.

1454
00:40:36.409 --> 00:40:39.540
You've just described well the previous complex,

1455
00:40:39.649 --> 00:40:40.949
but you've played

1456
00:40:41.090 --> 00:40:43.229
an important role in some of the,

1457
00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:45.669
the dimensions and features

1458
00:40:46.010 --> 00:40:46.629
of

1459
00:40:47.090 --> 00:40:50.629
the existing complex on Tempe campus and

1460
00:40:51.070 --> 00:40:52.610
perhaps some other areas too,

1461
00:40:52.770 --> 00:40:55.590
like the size of the courtyard and the dining hall.

1462
00:40:56.770 --> 00:40:58.129
Could you expand more on,

1463
00:40:58.250 --> 00:40:59.510
on the physical

1464
00:40:59.770 --> 00:41:01.110
aspects of

1465
00:41:01.729 --> 00:41:05.010
the campuses that you cared about and were influential in?

1466
00:41:05.709 --> 00:41:05.870
Yeah,

1467
00:41:06.030 --> 00:41:06.110
well,

1468
00:41:06.229 --> 00:41:06.250
well,

1469
00:41:06.350 --> 00:41:06.909
this is where,

1470
00:41:07.030 --> 00:41:09.129
this is where President Crowe's support came in,

1471
00:41:09.550 --> 00:41:11.020
incredibly importantly.

1472
00:41:11.469 --> 00:41:11.790
He,

1473
00:41:11.989 --> 00:41:13.379
he and the,

1474
00:41:13.389 --> 00:41:16.169
the chief financial officer of the of the university

1475
00:41:16.479 --> 00:41:19.459
decided that they wanted to build a new honors campus.

1476
00:41:20.129 --> 00:41:21.250
And that was something that they,

1477
00:41:21.370 --> 00:41:21.570
they,

1478
00:41:21.649 --> 00:41:23.239
they completely engineered.

1479
00:41:23.810 --> 00:41:25.250
They helped find the firm,

1480
00:41:25.370 --> 00:41:25.689
they had,

1481
00:41:25.899 --> 00:41:25.909
we,

1482
00:41:26.010 --> 00:41:27.149
we put out a proposal.

1483
00:41:29.229 --> 00:41:30.550
Requests for RFP,

1484
00:41:31.080 --> 00:41:32.310
request for proposals

1485
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.209
and 12 different entities in 2008.

1486
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:36.989
It was just before the 2008,

1487
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:38.010
um,

1488
00:41:38.270 --> 00:41:39.330
sort of economic issues.

1489
00:41:39.370 --> 00:41:40.959
It was early 2008,

1490
00:41:41.209 --> 00:41:42.899
put out an RFP for

1491
00:41:43.129 --> 00:41:44.929
for a whole honors campus,

1492
00:41:45.129 --> 00:41:47.510
and 12 different entities submitted

1493
00:41:47.889 --> 00:41:48.600
proposals,

1494
00:41:48.929 --> 00:41:50.590
so we had a great choice.

1495
00:41:50.929 --> 00:41:54.020
I asked one of the business managers of one of the entities that that

1496
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:54.290
that

1497
00:41:54.560 --> 00:41:55.830
that put in for.

1498
00:41:56.199 --> 00:41:56.209
For

1499
00:41:56.959 --> 00:41:57.830
a proposal.

1500
00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:58.399
Why,

1501
00:41:58.639 --> 00:41:58.879
why,

1502
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:00.530
why did he think there were so many,

1503
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:01.540
there were 12

1504
00:42:02.120 --> 00:42:02.790
groups that were,

1505
00:42:02.959 --> 00:42:04.010
these were each groups of,

1506
00:42:04.439 --> 00:42:05.419
of sort of um.

1507
00:42:07.050 --> 00:42:09.739
Construction for each group had a construction firm,

1508
00:42:10.060 --> 00:42:11.399
a finance firm,

1509
00:42:11.979 --> 00:42:14.870
and usually a student services firm firm,

1510
00:42:16.600 --> 00:42:20.239
student services department within their proposal that was

1511
00:42:20.689 --> 00:42:21.760
proposing how to

1512
00:42:22.429 --> 00:42:25.050
run the student services parts of these campuses

1513
00:42:26.260 --> 00:42:27.820
that they were proposing and

1514
00:42:29.020 --> 00:42:30.939
I asked one of the business managers of one of these,

1515
00:42:31.129 --> 00:42:32.239
one of these proposals

1516
00:42:32.919 --> 00:42:33.949
for proposing groups,

1517
00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:35.580
why so many would have come in.

1518
00:42:35.659 --> 00:42:35.860
He said,

1519
00:42:35.939 --> 00:42:36.300
well,

1520
00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:36.800
he said,

1521
00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:37.100
you know,

1522
00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:38.919
Tempe is the biggest single

1523
00:42:39.260 --> 00:42:41.669
undergraduate housing market in the nation right now.

1524
00:42:42.179 --> 00:42:43.820
So I guess we were lucky in that sense.

1525
00:42:43.899 --> 00:42:44.209
We had,

1526
00:42:44.659 --> 00:42:46.320
we could pick from 12 different people,

1527
00:42:46.939 --> 00:42:47.689
12 different groups.

1528
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:47.850
We,

1529
00:42:47.899 --> 00:42:50.080
we picked American campus communities.

1530
00:42:50.989 --> 00:42:52.479
And from that point on,

1531
00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:52.979
um,

1532
00:42:53.270 --> 00:42:55.340
we had a committee that interacted with

1533
00:42:55.919 --> 00:42:56.219
the,

1534
00:42:56.370 --> 00:42:56.860
the

1535
00:42:57.120 --> 00:42:59.229
main people in American campus communities,

1536
00:42:59.280 --> 00:42:59.840
which

1537
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:00.929
was a,

1538
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.040
a vice president of the whole of the ACC

1539
00:43:04.399 --> 00:43:05.139
but also

1540
00:43:05.350 --> 00:43:07.100
people who were specialists in

1541
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:08.699
housing

1542
00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:10.159
and student,

1543
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.739
student affairs sort of management stuff,

1544
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:14.000
um.

1545
00:43:14.889 --> 00:43:15.489
And

1546
00:43:16.709 --> 00:43:16.719
Uh,

1547
00:43:17.429 --> 00:43:18.219
a group that,

1548
00:43:18.310 --> 00:43:18.510
that,

1549
00:43:18.590 --> 00:43:19.389
that I

1550
00:43:19.870 --> 00:43:21.469
arranged to meet with them

1551
00:43:21.790 --> 00:43:24.790
that included Kristen as a student affairs person for,

1552
00:43:24.939 --> 00:43:25.939
for Barrett,

1553
00:43:26.389 --> 00:43:29.469
and me and Peggy and faculty and some students.

1554
00:43:30.020 --> 00:43:32.070
So that was what we called the Barrett Users Group,

1555
00:43:32.149 --> 00:43:33.149
the BG Group,

1556
00:43:33.350 --> 00:43:34.149
BU,

1557
00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:34.810
BUG.

1558
00:43:36.229 --> 00:43:37.729
We met we met with them every week

1559
00:43:37.909 --> 00:43:39.389
for more than a year,

1560
00:43:39.870 --> 00:43:41.189
starting in '06,

1561
00:43:41.270 --> 00:43:41.909
I guess.

1562
00:43:42.389 --> 00:43:44.250
The new campus opened in '09.

1563
00:43:44.709 --> 00:43:47.570
And it was a result of a lot of work by all those people.

1564
00:43:48.189 --> 00:43:48.610
So

1565
00:43:48.790 --> 00:43:52.810
there are many stories about picking out the block for the for the walls

1566
00:43:53.070 --> 00:43:53.820
of the new campus.

1567
00:43:53.909 --> 00:43:54.969
There are stories about

1568
00:43:55.149 --> 00:43:56.810
how we wrangled

1569
00:43:57.350 --> 00:44:00.850
the placement of the new campus and the placement of the new campus's dining hall

1570
00:44:02.469 --> 00:44:04.000
was really going to be shared

1571
00:44:04.300 --> 00:44:05.090
with one other

1572
00:44:05.790 --> 00:44:06.350
building.

1573
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:07.479
On the,

1574
00:44:07.530 --> 00:44:09.060
on the same new block,

1575
00:44:09.419 --> 00:44:12.229
which was going to be dorms for non-honor students,

1576
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:14.120
and we were going to have one dining hall,

1577
00:44:14.129 --> 00:44:15.080
and I just didn't like that.

1578
00:44:15.120 --> 00:44:17.340
I wanted to have a dining hall all for ourselves,

1579
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:20.199
so that took a little arguing because it had to have

1580
00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:22.129
a different loading dock and all that sort of stuff.

1581
00:44:22.919 --> 00:44:23.699
We also

1582
00:44:23.919 --> 00:44:24.360
had

1583
00:44:25.100 --> 00:44:25.110
Um,

1584
00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:25.770
we,

1585
00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:28.020
we put the washing machines and dryers on the

1586
00:44:28.020 --> 00:44:30.239
top floor instead of in a dingy basement.

1587
00:44:30.959 --> 00:44:33.110
And there's all sorts of stories about that.

1588
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:36.459
There also was a battle I had with people

1589
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:39.639
who wanted to have crushed rock in all the courtyards which they had

1590
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:43.649
in all the other courtyards of every other building at ASU basically,

1591
00:44:44.120 --> 00:44:45.570
except maybe the front of um.

1592
00:44:47.120 --> 00:44:48.800
Of uh old Maine,

1593
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:49.620
but

1594
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.639
I wanted grass and I wanted palm trees,

1595
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:53.570
and I,

1596
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:53.780
I,

1597
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:58.139
I had these people who were sort of actually environmentally oriented from the,

1598
00:44:58.520 --> 00:44:58.939
from the,

1599
00:44:59.000 --> 00:44:59.239
the,

1600
00:44:59.280 --> 00:44:59.939
the big

1601
00:45:00.080 --> 00:45:02.629
users group which had some some folks from,

1602
00:45:03.189 --> 00:45:03.709
from the

1603
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:05.270
physical plant

1604
00:45:05.439 --> 00:45:07.030
at ASU also on it,

1605
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:08.159
who said you can't do that,

1606
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:09.600
you can't have palm trees aren't.

1607
00:45:10.030 --> 00:45:12.070
Aren't a native species for for Arizona.

1608
00:45:12.149 --> 00:45:12.310
I said,

1609
00:45:12.350 --> 00:45:12.659
look,

1610
00:45:13.070 --> 00:45:15.600
we're trying to recruit National Merit Scholars from Minnesota,

1611
00:45:15.909 --> 00:45:17.929
and part of their iconic image of

1612
00:45:18.110 --> 00:45:19.550
where they want to be is a palm tree,

1613
00:45:19.560 --> 00:45:20.929
and we're going to have palm trees.

1614
00:45:22.080 --> 00:45:22.560
And that,

1615
00:45:22.600 --> 00:45:23.600
that was an example of,

1616
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:24.820
of one of the many

1617
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.719
different arguments I had to have to have grassy courtyards where kids could throw,

1618
00:45:29.830 --> 00:45:30.810
throw frisbees

1619
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:32.419
and um

1620
00:45:33.040 --> 00:45:33.800
palm trees.

1621
00:45:35.179 --> 00:45:35.770
And

1622
00:45:36.189 --> 00:45:37.969
Crowe backed me up with all this stuff.

1623
00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:39.550
And whenever he went up to Crowe,

1624
00:45:39.629 --> 00:45:39.909
he would,

1625
00:45:39.989 --> 00:45:41.149
he would just back me up.

1626
00:45:42.040 --> 00:45:42.459
So

1627
00:45:43.060 --> 00:45:43.070
it,

1628
00:45:43.080 --> 00:45:43.840
it started to,

1629
00:45:44.179 --> 00:45:45.909
I wanted a central dining hall.

1630
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:48.040
I didn't want music piped into that thing.

1631
00:45:48.080 --> 00:45:50.560
I didn't want television screens hanging from the ceiling of that.

1632
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:51.340
I just wanted

1633
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:53.179
to hear the clink of

1634
00:45:53.310 --> 00:45:56.139
silverware and the sound of students discussing things

1635
00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:57.600
over lunch or dinner,

1636
00:45:58.110 --> 00:45:58.860
and that's what we,

1637
00:45:59.439 --> 00:46:00.540
that's what we got.

1638
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:02.419
Yes,

1639
00:46:02.590 --> 00:46:05.350
that's good because they get enough screens everywhere else.

1640
00:46:05.429 --> 00:46:07.709
It's nice to have a place for conversation.

1641
00:46:08.040 --> 00:46:08.469
Oh yeah,

1642
00:46:08.590 --> 00:46:09.050
yeah.

1643
00:46:09.510 --> 00:46:10.250
And also we,

1644
00:46:10.310 --> 00:46:11.159
we wanted to,

1645
00:46:11.629 --> 00:46:12.489
the architect,

1646
00:46:12.989 --> 00:46:13.860
there were two architects,

1647
00:46:13.949 --> 00:46:15.820
one a Phoenix-based firm,

1648
00:46:15.830 --> 00:46:17.340
and then 11 was from Princeton,

1649
00:46:17.389 --> 00:46:17.959
New Jersey,

1650
00:46:18.020 --> 00:46:19.449
called Icon 5,

1651
00:46:19.870 --> 00:46:20.570
and I,

1652
00:46:20.709 --> 00:46:22.469
I got to know those guys because I went to,

1653
00:46:22.590 --> 00:46:23.120
I went,

1654
00:46:23.629 --> 00:46:25.250
I was going back to Princeton many times

1655
00:46:26.149 --> 00:46:27.489
to visit my parents.

1656
00:46:28.570 --> 00:46:30.050
So I would walk into their offices,

1657
00:46:30.189 --> 00:46:30.219
Man,

1658
00:46:30.340 --> 00:46:31.300
I got to know them very well,

1659
00:46:31.340 --> 00:46:31.810
and they,

1660
00:46:32.100 --> 00:46:32.919
they were basically.

1661
00:46:33.750 --> 00:46:35.330
They were working for us

1662
00:46:35.750 --> 00:46:37.939
and ACC let that happen because

1663
00:46:38.139 --> 00:46:40.510
ACC had meanwhile gotten to trust us in our,

1664
00:46:40.750 --> 00:46:43.030
our decisions about what we thought would be good for this new campus.

1665
00:46:44.500 --> 00:46:46.110
They let us work directly with the architects,

1666
00:46:46.189 --> 00:46:46.459
so it was,

1667
00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:49.129
it was as if someone had given us the money to hire

1668
00:46:49.429 --> 00:46:51.250
top-level architects who had designed

1669
00:46:51.510 --> 00:46:53.729
lots of the buildings at Princeton University,

1670
00:46:54.989 --> 00:46:56.149
but we got to talk to them.

1671
00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:58.090
Just by ourselves

1672
00:46:58.250 --> 00:46:59.389
and with our own ideas,

1673
00:46:59.709 --> 00:47:00.959
as we got to know them better,

1674
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.199
I became very good friends with the principal architect.

1675
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:03.800
He's now,

1676
00:47:04.080 --> 00:47:04.989
he's also a photographer,

1677
00:47:05.040 --> 00:47:05.919
he's retired now,

1678
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:06.379
but

1679
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:07.000
he,

1680
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:09.139
he sends me his notices of his

1681
00:47:09.879 --> 00:47:12.350
showings at different places of his photographs.

1682
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:14.260
So it was really great because

1683
00:47:14.479 --> 00:47:15.659
I could talk to him and say,

1684
00:47:15.879 --> 00:47:16.300
look,

1685
00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:20.100
we want to have something where students can lounge around during the day

1686
00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:21.070
and read books,

1687
00:47:21.080 --> 00:47:23.820
and he came up with the flat topped boulders idea.

1688
00:47:24.790 --> 00:47:25.370
Um,

1689
00:47:25.580 --> 00:47:25.989
you know,

1690
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:26.360
the,

1691
00:47:26.479 --> 00:47:28.040
the boulders in the courtyards are not

1692
00:47:28.219 --> 00:47:28.600
round.

1693
00:47:29.300 --> 00:47:31.679
They're flat tops so students can lounge on them

1694
00:47:32.739 --> 00:47:33.459
and stuff like that,

1695
00:47:33.540 --> 00:47:34.780
all sorts of stuff like that.

1696
00:47:35.100 --> 00:47:37.860
I told them I wanted to have columns the way Stanford had,

1697
00:47:38.100 --> 00:47:39.290
had had columns

1698
00:47:39.629 --> 00:47:40.409
around their courtyards,

1699
00:47:40.469 --> 00:47:40.620
but,

1700
00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:41.479
but instead of

1701
00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:42.580
just sandstone,

1702
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:43.439
I wanted to have.

1703
00:47:44.669 --> 00:47:46.929
Our cos made of the bougainvillea bushes,

1704
00:47:48.020 --> 00:47:49.629
the bougainvillea vines growing up them,

1705
00:47:49.750 --> 00:47:50.229
so that's,

1706
00:47:50.350 --> 00:47:51.209
that's how the,

1707
00:47:51.750 --> 00:47:51.939
the,

1708
00:47:51.949 --> 00:47:52.389
um.

1709
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:54.540
They're gonna be a columns of them.

1710
00:47:55.399 --> 00:47:57.719
Academic court got put in place.

1711
00:47:58.040 --> 00:47:59.739
So there's just endless stuff.

1712
00:48:00.449 --> 00:48:00.590
All sorts of things.

1713
00:48:02.040 --> 00:48:04.800
Those columns are beautiful and the flat top boulders,

1714
00:48:05.040 --> 00:48:06.159
especially if they're

1715
00:48:06.439 --> 00:48:07.310
under trees.

1716
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:08.340
I think I've even

1717
00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:09.020
seen

1718
00:48:09.520 --> 00:48:11.300
posts that have been put in the ground

1719
00:48:12.080 --> 00:48:14.659
for people to hang hammocks under trees

1720
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:16.209
where there are still trees.

1721
00:48:16.439 --> 00:48:16.780
Yeah.

1722
00:48:17.709 --> 00:48:21.320
So we spent a lot of time making those things very high quality.

1723
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:23.489
And we even had the,

1724
00:48:23.600 --> 00:48:25.969
the artwork throughout the whole campus,

1725
00:48:26.370 --> 00:48:28.969
be from Barrett students or other students who,

1726
00:48:29.330 --> 00:48:31.149
who were art students at ASU.

1727
00:48:32.050 --> 00:48:32.860
So,

1728
00:48:33.129 --> 00:48:34.590
I think you also

1729
00:48:35.010 --> 00:48:39.070
had some hand in the specific size of the courtyards or

1730
00:48:39.449 --> 00:48:39.949
the,

1731
00:48:40.330 --> 00:48:41.949
the way the dining hall,

1732
00:48:42.610 --> 00:48:44.929
the special room in the dining hall was developed

1733
00:48:44.929 --> 00:48:47.750
and maybe some of the staircases or steps.

1734
00:48:49.300 --> 00:48:49.770
Yeah,

1735
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:50.169
well,

1736
00:48:50.399 --> 00:48:52.260
we wanted to try to avoid as much as we could,

1737
00:48:52.379 --> 00:48:53.010
but it wasn't,

1738
00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:53.649
we,

1739
00:48:53.739 --> 00:48:53.939
we were,

1740
00:48:54.100 --> 00:48:57.209
we were proposing to put 1700 beds on 9 acres,

1741
00:48:57.540 --> 00:48:58.169
and to do that,

1742
00:48:58.179 --> 00:48:58.500
you had,

1743
00:48:58.699 --> 00:49:02.090
there was no way around having sort of block-like buildings,

1744
00:49:02.699 --> 00:49:03.860
to house the students.

1745
00:49:04.300 --> 00:49:04.719
So,

1746
00:49:05.139 --> 00:49:08.290
but we wanted to do whatever we could to ameliorate that look.

1747
00:49:08.699 --> 00:49:09.070
So

1748
00:49:09.520 --> 00:49:12.679
the architect had the waving wall of the dining hall.

1749
00:49:13.879 --> 00:49:17.030
They had plantings and grass to make it softer seeming.

1750
00:49:18.219 --> 00:49:18.229
Um

1751
00:49:20.969 --> 00:49:21.489
And

1752
00:49:23.479 --> 00:49:23.659
Sorry,

1753
00:49:23.739 --> 00:49:24.860
what was the other thing you said?

1754
00:49:25.870 --> 00:49:28.209
I remember you used to tell stories about

1755
00:49:28.469 --> 00:49:29.330
the courtyard

1756
00:49:29.850 --> 00:49:30.969
size and the,

1757
00:49:31.149 --> 00:49:33.379
this kind of dining hall you wanted,

1758
00:49:33.510 --> 00:49:33.810
the

1759
00:49:34.070 --> 00:49:34.850
separate room.

1760
00:49:35.229 --> 00:49:35.590
Yeah,

1761
00:49:36.110 --> 00:49:36.189
well,

1762
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:37.110
the dining hall,

1763
00:49:37.270 --> 00:49:37.649
we,

1764
00:49:38.030 --> 00:49:40.449
that was another happy coincidence that I went.

1765
00:49:40.709 --> 00:49:41.709
I went to visit the London,

1766
00:49:41.830 --> 00:49:42.110
Dublin,

1767
00:49:42.189 --> 00:49:42.909
Edinburgh.

1768
00:49:44.010 --> 00:49:44.580
Trip

1769
00:49:44.889 --> 00:49:46.949
from Barrett one summer

1770
00:49:47.050 --> 00:49:49.840
and I visited them when they were in London,

1771
00:49:50.290 --> 00:49:53.550
and then my wife and daughter and I took a separate trip

1772
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:54.270
um

1773
00:49:54.709 --> 00:49:54.719
to,

1774
00:49:54.790 --> 00:49:57.919
to Oxford because she had gone to Oxford for a summer,

1775
00:49:58.260 --> 00:49:58.280
for,

1776
00:49:58.449 --> 00:50:01.110
for a summer experience when she was in college.

1777
00:50:01.570 --> 00:50:02.550
She wanted to show me.

1778
00:50:03.350 --> 00:50:04.620
The new college,

1779
00:50:04.639 --> 00:50:06.439
which was built in 1300,

1780
00:50:06.520 --> 00:50:07.479
so it wasn't very new,

1781
00:50:07.560 --> 00:50:07.889
but

1782
00:50:08.209 --> 00:50:09.719
um it was called New College,

1783
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:10.370
Oxford,

1784
00:50:10.479 --> 00:50:10.939
and

1785
00:50:11.429 --> 00:50:12.550
that's where she had stayed.

1786
00:50:12.879 --> 00:50:13.189
She said,

1787
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:15.840
she said I should see the garden and I should see the dining hall,

1788
00:50:16.120 --> 00:50:17.469
the refectory that is.

1789
00:50:17.959 --> 00:50:19.199
And when she showed me the refectory,

1790
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:21.699
I took a picture of it and I brought it back and it was

1791
00:50:21.919 --> 00:50:23.800
the coincidental timing was just that

1792
00:50:23.959 --> 00:50:26.020
this is one of the architects who we by now

1793
00:50:26.439 --> 00:50:28.050
we were very good friends with.

1794
00:50:28.830 --> 00:50:28.850
and they

1795
00:50:29.790 --> 00:50:31.550
they they got right away what I wanted.

1796
00:50:31.629 --> 00:50:35.760
I wanted to have one of the rooms that they were designing to be like this refectory.

1797
00:50:37.070 --> 00:50:37.239
Which,

1798
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:40.199
which people at ASU sometimes call the refractory,

1799
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:41.879
you know,

1800
00:50:41.959 --> 00:50:42.750
but anyway,

1801
00:50:43.050 --> 00:50:43.419
um,

1802
00:50:43.560 --> 00:50:43.949
so

1803
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:45.760
I showed them the picture and they,

1804
00:50:45.919 --> 00:50:46.199
I said,

1805
00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:48.239
could you do a sort of more modern version of this,

1806
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:48.429
but,

1807
00:50:48.560 --> 00:50:50.639
but still with the clear story windows,

1808
00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:51.469
the,

1809
00:50:51.479 --> 00:50:51.840
um,

1810
00:50:52.110 --> 00:50:53.459
the wood all around.

1811
00:50:54.080 --> 00:50:54.679
Um,

1812
00:50:55.959 --> 00:50:56.500
The

1813
00:50:57.250 --> 00:50:58.610
The banners hanging down,

1814
00:50:58.810 --> 00:50:59.639
the lighting and the,

1815
00:50:59.649 --> 00:50:59.889
and the,

1816
00:50:59.929 --> 00:51:00.159
and the,

1817
00:51:00.219 --> 00:51:01.649
and the furniture.

1818
00:51:02.050 --> 00:51:02.250
Well,

1819
00:51:02.409 --> 00:51:04.129
President Crowe really got interested in this.

1820
00:51:04.250 --> 00:51:04.340
He,

1821
00:51:04.409 --> 00:51:05.270
he picked out

1822
00:51:05.770 --> 00:51:07.229
the tables and chairs

1823
00:51:07.570 --> 00:51:07.850
from a,

1824
00:51:07.929 --> 00:51:10.030
from a Stickney's catalog or something.

1825
00:51:10.229 --> 00:51:10.239
I,

1826
00:51:10.330 --> 00:51:10.419
I,

1827
00:51:10.570 --> 00:51:11.199
I don't know.

1828
00:51:11.570 --> 00:51:12.199
I don't know the company.

1829
00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:14.169
There's some company that makes really high quality

1830
00:51:14.169 --> 00:51:16.550
furniture called Stuckey's or Stickney's or something.

1831
00:51:17.310 --> 00:51:18.389
He picked out the,

1832
00:51:18.750 --> 00:51:19.939
the chairs and tables.

1833
00:51:20.270 --> 00:51:21.929
We have all wood floors in that room,

1834
00:51:22.100 --> 00:51:25.989
and we have the clear story windows and sort of modern-esque looking chandeliers.

1835
00:51:26.229 --> 00:51:27.959
They're not like the ones at New College,

1836
00:51:28.030 --> 00:51:28.500
but they're,

1837
00:51:29.010 --> 00:51:29.020
but,

1838
00:51:29.229 --> 00:51:30.850
but the look was definitely

1839
00:51:31.350 --> 00:51:32.780
refectory type look,

1840
00:51:33.149 --> 00:51:33.689
and

1841
00:51:34.310 --> 00:51:36.350
they were able to put it into place because we,

1842
00:51:36.550 --> 00:51:38.330
when I came back that summer from

1843
00:51:38.790 --> 00:51:39.580
visiting London,

1844
00:51:39.669 --> 00:51:39.899
Dublin,

1845
00:51:39.949 --> 00:51:40.679
and Edinburgh,

1846
00:51:40.909 --> 00:51:42.379
they were just starting to plan that,

1847
00:51:42.449 --> 00:51:43.449
that room.

1848
00:51:45.419 --> 00:51:46.020
And they,

1849
00:51:46.110 --> 00:51:48.820
they were willing to put a room like that into the place.

1850
00:51:48.870 --> 00:51:49.449
It could have been,

1851
00:51:49.649 --> 00:51:51.659
the whole dining hall could have just looked like the,

1852
00:51:51.709 --> 00:51:52.669
the outside part.

1853
00:51:52.909 --> 00:51:56.100
They had already decided to put the waving wall on it to,

1854
00:51:56.169 --> 00:51:58.270
to break up the block-like nature of,

1855
00:51:58.570 --> 00:51:59.850
of the interior part of,

1856
00:51:59.860 --> 00:52:02.050
of Barrett Honors College at Tempe,

1857
00:52:02.429 --> 00:52:02.929
but

1858
00:52:03.550 --> 00:52:03.560
they,

1859
00:52:03.750 --> 00:52:04.260
they were going to do that,

1860
00:52:04.310 --> 00:52:05.290
but there could have been

1861
00:52:05.469 --> 00:52:06.850
just more space for

1862
00:52:07.310 --> 00:52:08.340
regular chairs and tables,

1863
00:52:08.419 --> 00:52:08.830
but they,

1864
00:52:09.070 --> 00:52:09.850
they put in,

1865
00:52:10.189 --> 00:52:12.090
they fitted in a real refectory.

1866
00:52:13.260 --> 00:52:14.169
And that was wonderful.

1867
00:52:14.379 --> 00:52:14.500
I,

1868
00:52:14.580 --> 00:52:14.719
I,

1869
00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:16.050
I was behind many tours,

1870
00:52:16.060 --> 00:52:17.560
I may have told you before

1871
00:52:18.300 --> 00:52:19.870
that were going through the college when,

1872
00:52:19.979 --> 00:52:20.379
when.

1873
00:52:21.520 --> 00:52:22.639
Once we opened,

1874
00:52:23.100 --> 00:52:24.790
we had the refectory all set up,

1875
00:52:25.179 --> 00:52:25.649
um,

1876
00:52:26.100 --> 00:52:26.370
and I,

1877
00:52:26.459 --> 00:52:26.780
I,

1878
00:52:26.860 --> 00:52:27.060
I,

1879
00:52:27.139 --> 00:52:29.439
I heard students talking to their parents.

1880
00:52:30.219 --> 00:52:31.189
They didn't know I was listening,

1881
00:52:31.379 --> 00:52:32.409
they didn't know I was behind them.

1882
00:52:32.459 --> 00:52:34.040
I would just stop by and sort of

1883
00:52:34.340 --> 00:52:36.429
take the tour a little bit for myself,

1884
00:52:37.020 --> 00:52:38.159
and I heard them saying

1885
00:52:38.300 --> 00:52:39.300
when they saw the dining hall,

1886
00:52:39.580 --> 00:52:41.459
that's when they would usually turn to their parents and say,

1887
00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:42.399
I'm coming here.

1888
00:52:42.739 --> 00:52:42.969
It was,

1889
00:52:43.020 --> 00:52:44.760
it was a huge recruiting tool,

1890
00:52:45.419 --> 00:52:45.739
because in,

1891
00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:47.629
in Arizona there was nothing like that.

1892
00:52:48.739 --> 00:52:48.760
You know,

1893
00:52:49.620 --> 00:52:49.810
the,

1894
00:52:49.820 --> 00:52:50.199
um,

1895
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:50.780
the,

1896
00:52:50.830 --> 00:52:53.840
the library at Vassar or the dining halls at Princeton

1897
00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:54.860
looked like that,

1898
00:52:54.979 --> 00:52:55.209
but,

1899
00:52:55.260 --> 00:52:58.219
but kids from Arizona had never seen anything like that,

1900
00:52:58.459 --> 00:52:59.939
so it was a huge recruiting tool.

1901
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:02.110
Well,

1902
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:05.379
it's a lovely space and it gets

1903
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:08.120
used well in many different capacities,

1904
00:53:08.199 --> 00:53:09.300
as do the,

1905
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:10.399
the courtyard.

1906
00:53:10.479 --> 00:53:16.100
So thank you for all of your efforts to give us those usable outdoor spaces and some

1907
00:53:16.389 --> 00:53:18.860
unique inside spaces as well.

1908
00:53:20.090 --> 00:53:20.790
We're

1909
00:53:21.090 --> 00:53:23.649
getting close to 1 hour and there's so much more

1910
00:53:23.649 --> 00:53:26.270
we could talk about because I have a list of

1911
00:53:26.649 --> 00:53:27.389
roughly

1912
00:53:27.649 --> 00:53:31.270
30 amazing achievements and innovations

1913
00:53:31.610 --> 00:53:32.350
that you

1914
00:53:32.729 --> 00:53:33.310
helped

1915
00:53:33.889 --> 00:53:36.209
develop and advance

1916
00:53:36.449 --> 00:53:40.909
the Honors College which rippled through into helping ASU and the wider

1917
00:53:41.250 --> 00:53:42.489
Arizona community.

1918
00:53:42.810 --> 00:53:44.469
So we'll certainly have to

1919
00:53:44.850 --> 00:53:46.110
schedule another

1920
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:47.889
conversation at some point.

1921
00:53:48.250 --> 00:53:50.919
But just as we wrap up this particular

1922
00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:51.979
visit,

1923
00:53:52.340 --> 00:53:54.620
I have two things that come to mind.

1924
00:53:54.899 --> 00:53:57.760
One that relates to something we spoke about earlier,

1925
00:53:58.379 --> 00:54:00.179
when you said that you arrived.

1926
00:54:00.969 --> 00:54:02.280
In Barrett,

1927
00:54:02.290 --> 00:54:04.790
the faculty were called lecturers,

1928
00:54:05.129 --> 00:54:08.790
but I know one of the things that you achieved was obtaining

1929
00:54:08.919 --> 00:54:10.149
a different title

1930
00:54:10.290 --> 00:54:12.310
for the honors faculty fellows

1931
00:54:13.090 --> 00:54:13.300
in,

1932
00:54:13.330 --> 00:54:17.439
in addition to the title that they carry as honors faculty fellows,

1933
00:54:17.530 --> 00:54:17.989
their

1934
00:54:18.590 --> 00:54:20.469
title at ASU in a

1935
00:54:20.689 --> 00:54:21.949
different administrative

1936
00:54:22.250 --> 00:54:23.560
slot is lecturer,

1937
00:54:23.570 --> 00:54:25.110
and you got that changed

1938
00:54:25.409 --> 00:54:26.250
to teaching.

1939
00:54:27.649 --> 00:54:28.250
Assistant,

1940
00:54:28.290 --> 00:54:29.030
associate,

1941
00:54:29.060 --> 00:54:31.469
and full professor kind of titles.

1942
00:54:32.129 --> 00:54:34.280
After many years of championing that,

1943
00:54:34.370 --> 00:54:39.629
could you explain why that was important and share more about that process?

1944
00:54:40.330 --> 00:54:40.449
Yeah,

1945
00:54:40.530 --> 00:54:40.729
well,

1946
00:54:41.250 --> 00:54:41.610
one of the,

1947
00:54:41.689 --> 00:54:45.639
one of the things I knew from my experience before I came to ASU was that

1948
00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:47.879
That lecturers,

1949
00:54:48.620 --> 00:54:49.850
every place I'd been

1950
00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:52.379
sort of had a raw deal because they did,

1951
00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:53.580
they did a lot of the teaching,

1952
00:54:53.979 --> 00:54:55.129
up to most of the teaching,

1953
00:54:55.139 --> 00:54:57.570
depending on the university or the college we're talking about,

1954
00:54:57.969 --> 00:55:00.500
yet they never had the same title as professor.

1955
00:55:01.310 --> 00:55:02.620
And professors

1956
00:55:02.939 --> 00:55:04.620
were latching onto their titles

1957
00:55:04.879 --> 00:55:06.919
as the one way to distinguish them from the lecturers,

1958
00:55:07.020 --> 00:55:09.060
so they didn't want to cede ground,

1959
00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:09.879
so to speak,

1960
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:11.600
to lecturers in most of these places,

1961
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:14.419
and so the lecturers were sort of in this limbo everywhere.

1962
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:15.239
So I came,

1963
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.189
I came to the job feeling that,

1964
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:20.000
that lecturers were getting sort of a bad deal and that,

1965
00:55:20.080 --> 00:55:21.050
and that they should,

1966
00:55:21.399 --> 00:55:23.350
they were doing a lot of very good teaching,

1967
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:24.120
but that,

1968
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:24.800
that combined,

1969
00:55:24.879 --> 00:55:27.780
I have to give credit to Jackie Scott Lynch for this because

1970
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:29.669
she was the one who really

1971
00:55:30.229 --> 00:55:30.570
wrote,

1972
00:55:30.830 --> 00:55:31.669
she's a great writer,

1973
00:55:31.750 --> 00:55:36.169
she's a great writer of proposals to go to Muckamuck's higher up like the president,

1974
00:55:36.709 --> 00:55:37.270
and she,

1975
00:55:37.429 --> 00:55:38.209
she wrote

1976
00:55:38.750 --> 00:55:39.649
several different

1977
00:55:40.229 --> 00:55:41.729
treatises about why

1978
00:55:42.590 --> 00:55:43.159
The

1979
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:44.590
the Barrett faculty should be,

1980
00:55:44.810 --> 00:55:46.929
should be elevated in pay

1981
00:55:47.350 --> 00:55:47.929
and,

1982
00:55:48.570 --> 00:55:49.959
and in titles,

1983
00:55:50.510 --> 00:55:54.459
and it was a battle that went on for most of the 20 years I was there,

1984
00:55:54.709 --> 00:55:56.570
but in the last year or so,

1985
00:55:56.989 --> 00:55:57.709
and I kept,

1986
00:55:58.030 --> 00:56:01.149
uh this is through 33 or 4 different provosts too,

1987
00:56:01.550 --> 00:56:01.889
but,

1988
00:56:02.090 --> 00:56:02.530
um,

1989
00:56:02.870 --> 00:56:03.310
Mark,

1990
00:56:03.540 --> 00:56:04.070
Mark

1991
00:56:04.300 --> 00:56:05.870
Searle was the provost who

1992
00:56:06.080 --> 00:56:07.030
finally changed the,

1993
00:56:07.110 --> 00:56:07.570
the,

1994
00:56:07.629 --> 00:56:08.070
the

1995
00:56:08.379 --> 00:56:11.030
wording on the diploma that be students get to.

1996
00:56:11.600 --> 00:56:13.719
To have Barrett Honors College be on their,

1997
00:56:13.889 --> 00:56:15.129
on their ASU diploma,

1998
00:56:15.209 --> 00:56:16.110
that was a major.

1999
00:56:16.929 --> 00:56:17.830
Wonderful

2000
00:56:18.290 --> 00:56:18.800
change.

2001
00:56:19.050 --> 00:56:19.330
But the,

2002
00:56:19.429 --> 00:56:19.570
but,

2003
00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:21.149
but then the next provost,

2004
00:56:21.290 --> 00:56:21.840
it was actually,

2005
00:56:21.929 --> 00:56:23.219
it was Nancy.

2006
00:56:24.429 --> 00:56:24.439
Um,

2007
00:56:24.909 --> 00:56:25.189
who,

2008
00:56:25.310 --> 00:56:25.830
who

2009
00:56:26.149 --> 00:56:27.110
was the person who,

2010
00:56:27.270 --> 00:56:28.750
who finally agreed to

2011
00:56:30.219 --> 00:56:31.820
To change the titles.

2012
00:56:32.520 --> 00:56:33.409
And she did it,

2013
00:56:33.750 --> 00:56:33.909
she.

2014
00:56:34.600 --> 00:56:34.610
I,

2015
00:56:35.040 --> 00:56:35.790
I was using,

2016
00:56:35.919 --> 00:56:37.489
I was using the arguments that,

2017
00:56:37.560 --> 00:56:38.479
that Jackie had made.

2018
00:56:38.560 --> 00:56:38.699
I,

2019
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:40.340
I even kept Jackie's

2020
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:41.179
written

2021
00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:43.340
proposals from years earlier

2022
00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:44.520
and showed them to,

2023
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:46.060
to Nancy Gonzalez

2024
00:56:46.600 --> 00:56:47.439
and um,

2025
00:56:49.129 --> 00:56:49.889
She read them and she,

2026
00:56:50.060 --> 00:56:50.129
she,

2027
00:56:50.290 --> 00:56:50.320
she,

2028
00:56:50.449 --> 00:56:50.570
you know,

2029
00:56:50.969 --> 00:56:51.600
sometimes you just have to,

2030
00:56:51.659 --> 00:56:52.310
you just have to.

2031
00:56:53.270 --> 00:56:56.709
They have to find your body by the wall enough times that they break the wall down,

2032
00:56:56.790 --> 00:56:58.129
that's what it really was.

2033
00:56:58.590 --> 00:56:58.979
But,

2034
00:56:59.110 --> 00:56:59.510
um,

2035
00:56:59.709 --> 00:57:02.020
I kept bringing it up to new provosts,

2036
00:57:02.389 --> 00:57:04.229
and they must have finally talked to Crowe,

2037
00:57:04.270 --> 00:57:06.229
or maybe they made a decision themselves,

2038
00:57:06.310 --> 00:57:06.770
but

2039
00:57:07.310 --> 00:57:07.739
um,

2040
00:57:08.030 --> 00:57:08.889
we went from

2041
00:57:09.270 --> 00:57:10.429
just being called lecturers,

2042
00:57:10.510 --> 00:57:11.469
senior lecturers,

2043
00:57:11.510 --> 00:57:12.010
and

2044
00:57:12.250 --> 00:57:13.070
principal lecturers.

2045
00:57:13.149 --> 00:57:14.530
I was the first trio.

2046
00:57:15.050 --> 00:57:16.770
To honors faculty fellow,

2047
00:57:17.129 --> 00:57:18.649
which was the argument we used when we,

2048
00:57:18.729 --> 00:57:19.840
when we got the pay,

2049
00:57:20.560 --> 00:57:23.129
the pay scale to be different from other lecturers,

2050
00:57:23.689 --> 00:57:24.129
which,

2051
00:57:24.149 --> 00:57:26.350
which was maybe 5 years into my

2052
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:27.469
administration,

2053
00:57:27.540 --> 00:57:29.199
and so we've had that for a long time.

2054
00:57:29.250 --> 00:57:29.360
We've,

2055
00:57:29.810 --> 00:57:31.310
we've had a different pay scale,

2056
00:57:31.610 --> 00:57:32.370
as you probably know,

2057
00:57:32.520 --> 00:57:33.129
Stephanie,

2058
00:57:33.530 --> 00:57:33.840
but,

2059
00:57:34.090 --> 00:57:34.459
um,

2060
00:57:34.570 --> 00:57:36.709
but then the last step was the step

2061
00:57:36.889 --> 00:57:38.050
you mentioned at the start of this,

2062
00:57:38.129 --> 00:57:39.669
of this little sub conversation,

2063
00:57:40.889 --> 00:57:41.669
which was

2064
00:57:41.969 --> 00:57:43.169
the step of calling them.

2065
00:57:44.060 --> 00:57:44.669
Teaching,

2066
00:57:44.939 --> 00:57:45.580
teaching assistant,

2067
00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:46.610
teaching associate,

2068
00:57:46.620 --> 00:57:48.060
and teaching professor,

2069
00:57:48.419 --> 00:57:50.820
which I think they they deserved for a long time.

2070
00:57:51.629 --> 00:57:53.570
So I'm very happy that that happened.

2071
00:57:54.330 --> 00:57:54.850
It's,

2072
00:57:54.889 --> 00:57:55.250
it's,

2073
00:57:55.530 --> 00:57:56.590
I think it's still the,

2074
00:57:56.689 --> 00:57:58.270
it's one of the only places where

2075
00:57:58.570 --> 00:57:59.320
that has happened.

2076
00:57:59.370 --> 00:58:01.409
I think something like it has happened down at

2077
00:58:01.689 --> 00:58:01.860
UFA

2078
00:58:03.189 --> 00:58:03.689
and that helped,

2079
00:58:03.770 --> 00:58:04.310
that helped

2080
00:58:04.600 --> 00:58:05.679
convince Nancy,

2081
00:58:06.080 --> 00:58:06.330
I think,

2082
00:58:06.409 --> 00:58:06.489
to,

2083
00:58:06.580 --> 00:58:08.949
to do it also because if the hated UFA

2084
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:11.409
rivals were doing something like it,

2085
00:58:11.850 --> 00:58:13.610
then we had to at least be like them

2086
00:58:13.770 --> 00:58:14.949
or be better than they

2087
00:58:15.370 --> 00:58:15.530
were,

2088
00:58:15.649 --> 00:58:17.070
so it might have helped.

2089
00:58:17.909 --> 00:58:18.070
Well,

2090
00:58:18.149 --> 00:58:22.060
thank you for your perseverance and patience with that,

2091
00:58:22.209 --> 00:58:23.189
not giving up.

2092
00:58:24.879 --> 00:58:25.270
Well,

2093
00:58:25.399 --> 00:58:25.669
it was,

2094
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:27.399
it was a very good principle,

2095
00:58:27.560 --> 00:58:28.750
and we followed up on it,

2096
00:58:28.840 --> 00:58:29.120
yeah.

2097
00:58:30.110 --> 00:58:30.429
Well,

2098
00:58:30.510 --> 00:58:31.899
I do have,

2099
00:58:32.149 --> 00:58:32.709
as I said,

2100
00:58:32.750 --> 00:58:34.570
a number of things that

2101
00:58:35.189 --> 00:58:35.929
we would

2102
00:58:36.629 --> 00:58:38.969
benefit from learning more about from you,

2103
00:58:39.070 --> 00:58:40.830
but I think we'll put a pin in those,

2104
00:58:41.070 --> 00:58:41.449
including

2105
00:58:42.189 --> 00:58:42.500
the,

2106
00:58:42.590 --> 00:58:45.489
the last question I was hoping to talk about today

2107
00:58:46.250 --> 00:58:48.270
was your relationship with the Barrett's.

2108
00:58:48.350 --> 00:58:53.100
You shared some about your relationship with Ted and Peggy and Kristen

2109
00:58:53.389 --> 00:58:54.090
and that

2110
00:58:54.370 --> 00:58:55.909
dynamic that you had.

2111
00:58:56.830 --> 00:58:59.129
I think maybe we'll start next time

2112
00:58:59.389 --> 00:59:00.179
with what

2113
00:59:00.830 --> 00:59:03.340
It was like to work with the Barretts as well,

2114
00:59:03.550 --> 00:59:06.929
but thank you for your time today and

2115
00:59:07.550 --> 00:59:10.620
for the wisdom and the shepherding you've given us over the years,

2116
00:59:10.709 --> 00:59:12.459
and I look forward to our next conversation.

2117
00:59:13.110 --> 00:59:13.229
Well,

2118
00:59:13.310 --> 00:59:13.870
I do too.

2119
00:59:13.949 --> 00:59:14.550
It'd be great.

2120
00:59:14.629 --> 00:59:14.750
Well,

2121
00:59:14.870 --> 00:59:16.209
we can set it up whenever you want.

2122
00:59:17.070 --> 00:59:17.340
Thanks,

2123
00:59:17.429 --> 00:59:17.969
Mark.

2124
00:59:18.229 --> 00:59:18.590
OK,

2125
00:59:18.699 --> 00:59:19.310
thank you.