Hello,
this is Maira Khan
interviewing Doctor John Lynch on November 29th at 10:0:00
a.m. in Sage North in the Barrett Complex.
This interview is part of Barrett Oral History Project.
Our goal is to preserve a record of
Barrett's history in honor of our 30th anniversary.
Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us and share your experience.
So I'll begin with the questions.
Can you please begin by telling me how you got started with Barrett?
OK,
so I.
I'll start with how I ended up at ASU.
I ended up at ASU in 1994,
um,
doing a postdoc.
My PhD
was in evolutionary biology.
And I did a postdoc
in
the Department of Zoology,
which is now
School of Life Sciences,
so it's changed.
Um,
and
after a couple of years of doing the postdoc,
I ended up getting a position
as an academic advisor,
but also as a faculty associate teaching classes
for a program called the Interdisciplinary Humanities Program,
which is really cool because it had folks
who were interested in sort of modern cultural theory as well as uh
Sort of old style classics and all that sort of stuff,
um.
And it actually turned into film and media studies
through a long,
strange process.
Um,
So I ended up teaching there,
and then in 2000 a job came up,
a job came up for Barrett's
and I had a good experience with Barrett's students.
I had been,
at that time,
I had
A couple of Bard students that I was directing their honors thesis.
Um,
so I decided to apply,
and
18 years later,
here I am.
Alright,
thank you.
Um,
so what differences do you see between teaching
then and then teaching now with Barrett students?
Oh,
boy.
Uh,
well,
the biggest thing I think were class sizes.
Class sizes back then.
were a lot smaller.
I mean,
they were,
some classes would only be 12 students,
but they were tapped out at 15.
Um,
and we were in old Irish hall,
and the classrooms weren't that good,
and it was kind of like,
you know.
It was what it was.
Um.
And
Really,
I mean,
a lot of what we've done has stayed the same
in many senses.
uh,
I mean,
the Socratic seminar
based on primary texts.
Uh,
all that sort of good stuff.
Um.
There's some not so good stuff as far as the students would be concerned,
of course,
are the papers,
uh,
but those have stayed more or less,
you know,
the same since.
If anything has changed
substantially,
it's actually,
we sort of drifted away from the sort of notional
idea that this was a sort of a great books course
that.
Every written text had to be
You know,
usually by some
dead white guy or something like that
and
just.
It's sort of a semi-conscious process,
people started bringing in
greater diversity of voices,
whether it's people of color or underrepresented voices.
Uh,
so I think it's fair to say that if you looked at the syllabi.
Say,
from this past semester in
171,
and certainly definitely in 272.
Um,
You'd you'd notice a fairly radical difference in.
The sorts of readings that were being used,
the sorts of voices that are being heard,
uses of er
Art and imagery and and and and video,
for example,
and even music.
some jazz pieces,
for example,
that probably wouldn't have occurred
20 years ago.
Um,
so the,
the student,
I,
I think that was sort of incremental,
that was just like it slowly happened.
It wasn't like everybody woke up one day and said,
well,
everybody woke up,
woke,
as it were,
and suddenly decided what they wanted to do was change everything and
Let's do this.
It just,
it just happened.
So I,
I,
it,
it's kind of interesting
to look at.
Um,
in that sense,
because.
The framework,
the papers,
the way discussions are run,
all that sort of stuff stays the same,
but the content has shifted in,
I think,
very interesting ways.
So what do you think Barrett students can or how do you think they can benefit from
being exposed to more diverse pieces in their human event courses?
Uh
I won't pause for too long.
Um,
I think,
I,
I think one of the things about it is,
so I,
I grew up in Ireland and so therefore I was exposed
to
that beast that's known as European culture,
you know,
with a lot of different voices and a lot of um
Ah,
different cultural influences and languages and,
and
by the time I was.
Certainly,
you know,
uh,
20
I,
I'd,
you know,
been through a lot of Europe and spent time there working and stuff like that.
And I think that gives you a certain perspective,
right,
um,
and certainly at the start of
when I started.
The students were largely,
I'll be honest about this,
sort of fairly
well to do white kids.
Ah,
the vast,
vast majority of them.
Um,
and they had one sort of perspective,
and
You know,
walking them slowly through something like
uh the Dow Jing or Confucius or the bag of a Gita or something like that,
uh,
was an interesting experience.
Um.
So
I,
I guess to
get to your question,
I will do it eventually,
is that I,
I,
I think it's,
it's a way of giving a certain amount of cultural perspective,
a diverse
perspective that I think particularly.
Without wishing to get too political about this,
given the current political climate is a very good thing.
Um,
I don't think
exposing,
you know,
some.
Right leaning,
you know,
17 year old engineer
is to the Dow is suddenly going to make them,
you know,
change their political views and and you know,
something like that,
but it can't hurt,
I think it's that way.
So I mean I think I think
cultural
exposure to cultural diversity.
For the um.
For the student,
but I also think
it's
There's some great writers,
for example,
that
ah.
Most people
haven't heard of.
So to sort of get,
you know,
whether it's their minority voice or or whatever,
so to get them.
You know,
if you have 4 classes and 1 student goes,
this is the best writer I've ever had.
I want to read more of their stuff and whatever,
that's that's always a good thing as well,
if you see what I'm saying.
So,
I think there's
Um
I mean,
one of the things,
this is somewhat tangential,
but
the danger is always then
when you're teaching something that you,
you really love yourself.
So,
there's been sort of some Irish authors that I've,
over the years,
thrown in there and
Pass flat lines.
And I'm like,
oh,
OK.
And that's like soul destroying,
because you're like,
oh God,
why can't you get,
and then you realize it's because
there's so much cultural
Knowledge expected by the author.
It's just all packed in there that
all the things that
were triggering for me,
oh,
that's that's that's
beautiful because it reflects this aspect of
Irish politics or something like that.
The students,
of course,
have no hope of getting at it.
So,
so there's always those dangers,
uh,
whether it's either you're bringing in something for a
different culture or even something you really like yourself.
I mean,
there are many works,
you know,
which are more classic works that I
love and
Don't go down too well in class,
and it's like,
well,
I will never do that again,
because it's it's broken my heart,
you know,
so
that
that can make sort of choosing texts kind of interesting.
So kind of along the same line,
what is the human
the human event course mean to you?
Lots of grading.
Um
I
I I'll tell you what I,
what it means to me now.
Um
In the sense,
sort of push,
going back a little bit to something I said earlier.
Um
I,
I think it's.
Uh an opportunity for me to try and encourage students.
To
uh.
Talk among themselves about
important issues
in a
um
Sort of,
factual,
evidence-driven kind of way.
And the reason I say that is again,
I think
we're at a moment in time in American.
Political culture where I think that's really,
really important.
20 years ago,
I would probably have said something about,
well,
the payoff is,
is,
we're teaching students how to write,
you know,
in certain ways.
And I'm a little bit more skeptical about the value of that now,
for
not only the political reasons.
Um,
I doubt
a six-page human event paper will ever change the world.
I could be wrong,
um.
But,
and also,
but I also think for technological reasons,
um,
You know,
where people are now more used to screen time and stuff like that and
communicating in
You know,
short bursts rather than extended extended things.
I always thought we should get rid of the human
event papers and just make a series of tweets.
Sort of if you can explain Nietzsche to me in a set of tweets,
then you know,
we did that,
which is an art in and of itself.
I mean,
you can make an argument that that's equally as valid in some ways.
Um,
so I mean,
so,
so I think there's been a shift in the way that I,
what I see the value.
Of it.
The value
For the student.
The value for me.
Um,
We've got the best job in the world,
except for the grading.
Um,
You're gonna hear that quite a lot,
um,
in the sense that.
We get to
Walk into a class.
And
talk about something that's interesting.
And as long as everybody's done the reading,
And as everybody's sort of prepared and engaged.
It's a quick 75 minutes.
Right,
um,
and it
always leads more.
Open questions than it does.
And I think that's one of the things that
some of the students find somewhat frustrating.
I
The sort of,
there's the expectation that there's a big answer,
right,
that somehow after 75 minutes,
you're going to understand.
You know,
Cicero or something like that.
Uh,
or what it's like to be,
you know,
er
an underrepresentative
individual in a certain culture or something like that.
And that's not gonna happen,
right?
And,
and I,
I guess.
One of the things
I find it's sort of like the STEM majors that tend to struggle most against it,
because these sort of humanities sort of majors are a little bit more sort of OK about
ambiguity and not figuring stuff,
but
You know,
the engineers,
there's an answer and they're gonna find it.
So I,
I always find that a little bit fun,
you know,
in,
in that sense,
and it it just makes for great
conversations.
You know,
as long as you're willing to accept the ambiguity of what's going on.
Um,
uh,
it's like the other thing that always gets me is occasionally you'll steal.
So what actually is the human offense.
I didn't choose the name.
I have no idea what it means,
which it makes you sort of feel a little bit like a fraud of some kind.
Right,
that's that
we're we're hiding this thing,
the event that happened around maybe noon,
like 4:04 BCE or something like that.
Oh,
that's the human event.
OK,
right,
you know.
Um,
so,
so I,
I just find that really,
really interesting,
uh,
that
we're not terribly sure.
What it even means.
But we've been carrying this tag,
you know.
And it's actually funny,
um.
Because
other honors colleges have sort of taken the sort of name,
and they can't use the name.
So there's an honors college whose equivalent is called the Human Situation.
Which just sounds awkward,
right?
I mean,
and it's like,
it's like flattery,
and it's like,
oh,
that's nice,
thank you very much.
But,
and strangely enough,
I'd be able to tell you what the human situation is.
You know what I mean?
But you ask me what the human event is,
I'm like.
Anyway,
that was a little tangential,
I apologize,
but,
uh,
so,
but I mean.
I,
I think it's one of the things I also say to the students,
uh,
privileged students that are,
are
Having problems talking in class,
um,
for whatever reason,
is
what it also is,
this is probably the safest space that they're going to have.
To learn how to interact.
With
other students.
So no matter,
you know,
occasionally I'll get
this,
you know,
computers,
computer engineering,
computer systems engineering,
computer science,
whatever
major,
and he's like,
oh I won't have to
work with people.
I'm just going to be in my office coding and stuff like that.
I'm that isn't how it works.
There's no solitary genius on the hill creating the next Facebook
and you're going to have to interact with people and you're going to have to be
able to convince them of your position and you're going to have to do this.
So if you want to be a better engineer.
Or a better historian
or a better whatever.
You're going to have to learn these skills,
and this is the place we,
yeah,
we're not talking about engineering,
we're talking about
Ovid's metamorphosis or something like that.
But the skills are transferable.
So,
this is your way to learn those skills as a freshman.
And you will be better.
Throughout your college career and beyond because of.
And usually when you sort of couch in those terms,
students who are a little bit,
I don't know why I'm here,
you know,
are a lot more receptive to what's going on.
You know,
um,
and that usually works
remarkably well actually to get some of the quieter students to start.
Coming out of their shell,
because they,
they can see a real payback for themselves.
In the short term,
medium.
I don't know if that was actually an answer to the question.
No,
yeah,
that was perfect.
Um,
can you tell me a little bit more about other courses that you teach at Barrett?
Uh.
Well
Yeah.
So,
so
one of one of the great things about this job is
there's probably very few places that have an
evolutionary biologist who teaches classes on Greek drama.
Um,
because
Biology programs aren't going to allow you to do that,
and,
and classics programs aren't going to bring in a biologist to do it.
Um,
And,
and
so,
so the
My passion
in many ways is
Greek history and culture,
ancient Greek history and culture.
So I,
I teach a course.
Various versions of it on um
Greek tragedy in particular.
Um,
and so one version is,
you know,
we'll work our way through the works,
you know.
a drama day kind of thing and um
just talk about them
and
talk about the history and talk about
er ways of of
What we may learn about ancient Greek culture from
um
these surviving works.
Um,
and that's really good because some of the students who like love the human event,
love that going back and doing that sort of thing,
um.
And
it sort of then developed as a course I'm teaching at the,
I'm just finishing teaching at the moment.
Uh,
on tragedy,
trauma and war.
Which looks at how people have been using
over the last couple of years,
Greek tragedies
to work with veterans with PTSD
to help them.
Start a dialogue about
what's going on and and and all these sort of,
and their families,
equally as important.
Um,
and then that subsequently has been expanded to work with er er
incarcerated prisoners
and prison officers.
Uh,
and to deal with end of life issues and stuff like that.
So that course is is really interesting because
we still study the dramas that they use,
and try and understand what's going on then,
before we talk about how they get used and stuff like that.
Um
So I had just,
uh,
Tuesday.
Uh,
and our last class,
this fantastic discussion about
Um,
uh,
end of life issues.
And
You know,
there were very diametrically opposed opinions in the room,
as you can well imagine with an issue like that.
Um
And using the tragedies as your starting off point,
they were,
they ended up
I,
I don't think anybody's mind was changed.
You know what I mean,
but there was a middle ground found.
And
the realization that this was complicated and there had to be an ongoing discussion
and all that sort of stuff,
which
is exactly what you want.
Right,
uh,
you know,
get started thinking about these things,
and they are tough issues and stuff like that.
And if we're using Greek drama,
for example,
as a way to get us in there.
That's great.
Uh,
you could,
you could use other things,
obviously,
I mean,
this happens to work for.
So,
that's largely a lot of what I've been teaching,
but in the past I've done
stuff about,
uh,
courses about the interface between science and religion and philosophy.
Um,
I've done,
uh,
I'm blanking on it.
sections,
other sections of course in the history of science and things like that.
So,
but I mean that's the great thing,
I mean.
For whatever reason,
the decision was made that when we teach those upper division courses,
It doesn't
have to be within our necessary area of specialization.
You know,
so you can teach a class on something that you
Is your hobby
or your passion.
Like that.
Um,
and that's fairly unique,
because in most places there are,
you know,
upper division courses that have to be taught,
right?
So,
you know,
intro to
programming or something like that.
And
somebody's going to have to teach it,
so you have to do it and all this sort of stuff.
But here,
if you look at the list of upper division courses,
it's just everybody has chosen to do that topic because they they like that topic.
And the the beauty of it is if if the class bombs totally.
Clearly you're more interested in it than the students,
then you'd never have to teach it again.
You can develop something else.
And
that's,
that's
a very good thing,
a very nice thing.
Um,
and then there are classes we teach on study abroad,
you know,
so I've taught in
London,
Edinburgh,
Dublin.
Greece and
Italy.
So those are,
those are also fun as well because there's that element of
teaching the stuff,
for want of a better expression in the field
where they can see,
you know,
the stuff where's the Roman forum or something like that.
Um,
and then that's an extra sort of dimension to all of that as well.
You know,
the first time I
I have very
strong memories of
I was teaching in Athens.
And
we took the students at the Acropolis.
Uh,
and they're coming over and they're asking me questions and,
you know,
I'm pointing out things and all this sort of stuff.
And I started getting emotional.
It was like,
this is it.
This is,
you know,
how it's supposed to be.
Um.
You know,
both for me as a teacher,
but I also think for the students to be able to expose,
to be exposed to seeing these things and not
just hearing about them or seeing them on video,
right?
If you stand in the Acropolis and look out over Athens and the Bay of Salamis.
A lot of things that you've read about suddenly start making sense
in ways that
you can't explain,
you know,
uh,
so that's why I think one of the things.
Um,
The study abroad opportunities and all that sort of stuff,
I think are deeply valuable.
Both for us as educators,
but also for for the students.
I mean,
if I,
if I could
wave a magic wand and become the
And we had,
you know,
a donor of some kind.
I basically make sure that every
art student
got to do
a study abroad,
whether it's
10 days or 4 weeks or something like that,
at no cost to them.
And it's part of the deal.
You just have to do it.
We have a whole bunch of programs,
whatever,
um,
but because I think it's a really important thing
for
not only
students in general,
but our students in particular to be exposed to.
Other cultures.
Uh,
not as a tourist,
not as a just,
you know,
I saw the Eiffel Tower,
you know,
sort of thing,
but do the sorts of things that we do,
for example,
when we take students to Rome.
and put them into
apartments.
Surrounded by Romans.
Modern Romans,
not ancient Romans,
er surrounded by Romans,
er and having to do daily shopping,
and having to negotiate living in the city themselves.
Um,
you do that for 3 weeks,
and you'll come back changed,
but you'll come back with a set of skills
that you can,
um,
use anywhere.
Um
I mean,
I've seen students
go.
From
In Athens on day one,
not being able to read the language,
not being able to do anything,
just totally paralyzed.
Not
being willing to go into a
Uh,
like a cafe,
I'd buy some food because I didn't recognize anything,
he didn't know what was going on,
to,
you know,
5 weeks later in Rome,
basically.
Totally
Able to deal with anything that was thrown at them,
you know,
going to Naples for the weekend on their own,
kind of thing.
And that's a huge,
that's an amazing thing to see.
Um,
and it's amazing for the students as well,
so
You know,
in an ideal world,
everybody would get to do that.
Everybody would be exposed to that.
Financier
need.
That's my dream.
Uh,
so do you have a specific favorite memory or something from a study abroad trip?
Probably that 1st 1st time on the Acropolis with students.
Um,
there are some photos of it somewhere,
um.
But yeah,
that was,
that was.
I was very powerful.
Um,
I mean,
one of the things
it's.
Yeah,
I mean,
distilling 18 years down to give me,
give me one good memory.
I don't know if I could do that,
um.
I had,
I had a memory that that wasn't actually,
it's bi-related,
but,
but it wasn't in the human event or it wasn't a thing,
it was a
um.
There are a number of students who.
have become
good friends of mine,
who've now long graduated,
are now like professional lawyers and doctors and stuff like that.
Whom
when they come into town,
um.
You know,
get in contact with me and we go out and have a bite
to eat and a drink or something like that and just catch up.
Um,
and so these are in their
Early to mid 30s now.
Um,
That's fun.
Um,
and then watching them have kids.
It's it's,
it's like really sort of
um.
I don't know how to how to phrase it.
Uh,
long term project kind of thing,
you know what I mean?
You're like seeing,
seeing all these things.
Um,
and then there was,
there was,
uh,
an,
an extent of mine,
a barrister,
who,
uh,
asked me to be groomsman at his wedding,
which was an interesting experience because all the other
groomsmen were the same age as he was,
late,
late 20s,
and
I
I at the time was in my late 40s,
you know,
I was like,
OK.
They're like,
yes,
we're going out partying before the wedding,
and I'm getting too old for that.
Which is unfortunately true,
but,
um,
so those sorts of things,
I think.
So that's not as much a single memory as a
A cluster of things,
you know,
um.
There
there's.
Uh,
you know,
I,
without naming names,
and there's,
there's a student of mine who's now,
she's got a PhD.
In anthropology and she
Um,
You know,
I was
working in Europe and all that sort of stuff and.
She,
you know,
we stay in touch and when she's in town.
We'd meet up and,
and,
you know,
she's like,
I need your advice about life
and where I should go from here and all this sort of stuff,
and
that's
It's deeply touching
that somebody still cares what
what you think.
You know,
it's,
it's one thing
to have a 20 year old come into your office and go,
I'm thinking of
taking this class,
or I'm thinking of changing my major,
please help me,
right?
But then when you have like a,
you know,
30-something year old going,
I'm thinking of making a major life decision,
but I and I still value what you think,
that's kind of cool,
you know.
So anyway,
so yeah,
uh,
if I was looking for a single memory
on study abroad,
it certainly was that first time in the Acropolis with the students.
Uh,
if I'm thinking about everything else,
it's just that interwoven sort of.
Sets of things,
I mean,
um.
Every
The other thing I would say is that
That feeling of
Sort of
almost
Uh,
pride for want of a better word.
Um,
Every time I see one of my students walk across the stage at graduation.
Uh,
my thesis students.
Uh,
because you know how hard they've worked and,
and you've helped them along and it's been rough.
That just the sense of
They did it.
You know,
that's an ongoing memory,
as it were.
It's an ongoing feeling because it happens twice a year.
Occasionally,
so
So
given your scientific background,
how do you bring that to
humanities courses like
the human events and your Greek,
uh,
classics
courses?
I try not to.
I try not to explicitly,
um,
so years ago,
um.
You know,
I,
I
teach things like,
you know,
Darwin and Newton's Principia.
My colleague
Professor Foy still does all those sorts of things.
And I did it,
and then it,
it turned into we had sort of a science focused.
273,
I think we called it at the time.
Uh
stream,
and then there was a social science stream,
and then there was a humanities stream.
Uh,
and I ended up doing the science focused one because whatever.
And
I found that
somewhat
um.
Unsatisfying both for me and the students
because
yeah we were reading Galileo,
we were reading,
you know,
some of the greatest hits in science and some stuff,
science fiction and you know,
things that you can say science
and
Um,
the problem was,
was all the students in the section were like STEM majors.
And
they were expecting
Science.
And I
Compared to 171,
which was,
which hadn't changed,
which was
a mix of STEM majors and humanities majors and stuff like that,
and design folks and
music therapy people and stuff like that,
um,
where you you got this diversity of perspectives and voices.
It was becoming
groupthink.
And,
and the idea actually was,
originally when it was first put together,
it wasn't for all the science majors to take the science version.
But for,
uh,
because there were only a few of us who could teach it,
myself and Joe Frey being the two,
and Tom Martin,
but the idea that they would know that my background was in science,
but there was some sort of miscommunication in it that never got across to people.
Um
The only way I use it now.
I
when I have a student,
usually a STEM major,
who goes,
I can't do this.
Or this isn't interesting to me,
or I see no value in this.
And then I can unreel my life story,
you know,
look,
I,
I have a terminal degree in biology,
I've published a lot of papers,
and I can read
the Iliad.
And I can get something out of it.
So you can do it as well.
Um,
so to use it more in that way,
to use my background,
not so much in the classroom,
but it sort of as a pedagogical tool to be able to go,
look,
any of you can do this.
There isn't something special about science
and the humanities.
Right,
I think that artificial construct has,
has done way too much damage
to the way I think students
not only get taught.
Um,
but
how they're,
how they're sort of channeled into things at a very early age.
Um,
and I think that's unfortunate,
and I'm all for breaking down those,
those things.
So,
um,
You know,
other,
other than me
on the first day of class telling the students,
you know,
I got a PhD in biology,
so here we go.
And that's the last,
you know,
and,
and occasionally,
um.
I'll talk about,
you know,
I'll mention things like
how say certain aspects of quantum mechanics may
fit in with something we're talking about.
But that's more of a tangent rather than a
This is the main point.
I'm going to show you quantum mechanics.
How there may be multiple copies of you somewhere,
and,
you know,
all this sort of stuff.
Uh.
You know,
so it it it it it hovers around the edges,
but it's never in there.
And it certainly doesn't play any part in the
Well,
in the Greek tragedy course,
not so much in the trauma course,
a little bit in the sense that,
you know,
being able to talk about
Aspects of PTSD and stuff like that in scientific terms.
So everybody knows exactly what we're talking about.
But it,
you know,
anybody in the humanities,
and,
you know,
20 minutes in,
in on Wikipedia could do the same thing.
You see what I'm saying.
So that's my bad.
All right.
So what value do you see in the honors thesis that Senior Zabarre must complete?
Absolutely
none
That was a joke.
Um.
Uh,
I'll,
I will give you
uh.
A couple of things.
So I,
I,
I published with
my thesis students,
so for them,
you know,
applying to grad school with a publication
ready to go or whatever is a good thing.
So that's
completely practical and stuff like that.
But the vast majority of honors thesess don't get published in any form or function.
Um
I really encourage students to.
do a thesis outside their major.
Um,
As a way of.
In many cases,
for some of them,
scratching the itch
that existed ever since the human events.
So,
you know,
STEM majors,
for example,
who who did really like
Greek tragedy.
and wanted
To keep on doing something.
This is their opportunity.
It's probably the last opportunity that they will have,
particularly if they go on to grad school or something like that.
Um,
For a lot of students,
so a lot of students that I work with on thesis are,
are pre-med,
pre-health professions.
And
if you think about it,
um,
If you're in B and you have a good GPA.
And I probably go to MCAT score.
You're going to have some lab experience,
maybe over in Biodesign or someplace like that.
Uh,
you've probably shadowed a doctor at some point.
You may be involved with the,
the male program.
Um,
That's a lot of good stuff,
but if you're trying to get into a really good med school,
uh,
there's going to be a whole bunch of
students with the exact same profile,
right?
So how do you make yourself different?
And I think the thesis is a great way to do that.
So for example,
for the pre-health profession students that work with me,
I,
I'd say,
you know,
let's do something on bioethics or medical
policy or history of medicine or something.
And the reason I know this works is there is a student of mine
from
way back now.
Um
And she
had
thought that
she had been at the mail and she had noticed,
as it's unfortunately happening that
Patient doctor interactions were about 15 minutes,
and stacked in.
And if,
if everything
couldn't be answered in that time,
basically the doctor ended up giving some literature to this,
to the
patient and said read this and get back to me if you have any questions,
right?
And she thought that was a little weird,
right?
She had a conversation with me.
And she was a biochemistry major and she had a conversation with me.
And I said,
well,
let's see what we can do about this.
And she said,
well,
what I want to do is
analyze the literature that's been given out
for just something as really simple as readability.
You know,
that magic number you can get,
you know,
using Word or something like,
you know,
what grade level your writing is.
It always depresses people.
Um.
4th grade,
really?
Um,
so that's all she did.
She scanned them in,
she analyzed them,
whatever,
and then looked at literacy values,
right?
And
she found there was this huge disparity between
the higher level that these
uh
literature was expecting versus the average literacy of folks in Arizona
and and nationwide.
So,
she then made some suggestions to the to the male educational um.
About how they should change things or whatever.
She so she wrote this up as a thesis.
Um,
what that gave her was two things.
Um,
as she was writing it up,
she was working on her statement from med school.
So she was able to talk about,
rather than turn around and say,
oh,
I want to be a doctor because,
which is the standard first draft that everybody does,
she was able to talk explicitly about
the importance of,
of,
uh,
patient communication,
doctor-patient communication,
and how she realized that importance
and how she's been studying it,
etc.
Uh,
so she applied to a whole bunch of schools,
some really good,
good schools,
and she got an interview for every one of them.
And every single interview started with,
so you're interested in doctor-patient communication?
Talk to me about that.
Right.
And she was the expert in the room.
She had numbers,
she,
she had,
she had a phone,
she would have
pulled out a PowerPoint or something like that,
or whatever.
She was totally in charge of every single interview.
She got into every single one of those medical schools.
Right.
That is the power of the thesis.
Right.
Uh,
it allows you to become the expert on something.
that you may be able to leverage,
whether it's grad school applications,
or even
You know,
med school,
or even just because you want to do it.
You know,
um,
So,
that's,
it's also,
I'll flip at the other side and say,
what's the value of it for me?
I've worked on
So many such diverse things.
I've done scientific work with students.
I've done
um
You know,
doctor patient communication.
I've done historical stuff and whatever.
Uh,
my last student,
um,
just finished writing a letter of recommendation for,
uh,
worked on
rugby and American sports culture.
Uh,
for me,
this is great.
I'm like,
you know.
Give me all these things that I get to work on
and and you're gonna have to do the hard work,
right?
I'm just there to make sure you don't
say anything stupid or
you're working in profitable directions or whatever,
um,
but
so I learned quite a lot out of these things,
so that's fun as well.
You know,
so
yeah,
it's.
There are very fewer
Sort of more traditional departments,
for example.
I'm thinking like,
say,
in life sciences,
where you would have an opportunity to work with the student on
Rugby and American culture.
That's kind of
All right.
So can you tell me a little bit about,
uh,
the duties you're given as faculty chair for Barrett and what that consists of?
Uh,
OK,
so I.
I'm no longer the faculty chair,
but I was the faculty chair,
um,
OK,
so there's there's there's a bunch of things.
There's sort of representational things
where uh
you represent
the faculty to the deans.
Meetings,
you represent deans and the faculty
in meetings,
so you're sort of a conduit for all those sorts of things.
Um,
you're part of the sort of decision making.
The leadership team in Barrett as a whole.
So that's not only the deans,
but also various staff individuals and stuff like that.
Um
You
represent Barrett to the university at large.
At various meetings,
there's a lot of meetings.
That's that's the take home from this,
I think.
Um,
and,
uh.
Occasionally you'll also represent Barrett to outside parties that come in.
So,
Barrett is successful enough that we have
individuals from university that either have existing honors programs.
Or colleges,
or want to develop them,
for them to come in and
Attempt to steal our ideas,
as it were.
But we're fairly welcoming,
they come in,
we meet with them.
So the chair usually gets to
meet with groups
of those as well and answer their specific questions about things.
Um
That's the meeting aspect of it.
Uh,
then there's sort of the procedural stuff.
There's a lot of
paperwork.
So,
it's either meetings or paperwork.
It's,
it's like something out of the office.
Um.
That
the chair ultimately does the annual evaluations of all faculty members.
Everybody
has an annual review.
While there's a committee that
Does
most of the hard work about it.
Um,
the chair's the one who writes the final annual review.
Uh,
there's a promotion work.
Uh
The chair
also writes letters for promotions,
and recommendations for promotions and contracts.
And
all that sort of good stuff.
Um,
And then there's everything from as mundane as like
authorizing grade changes to
The hours worked by our faculty assistant and
so it's bureaucracy basically
um.
It's got good things and bad things.
But
yeah,
it sounds cynical,
but the paperwork and meetings,
you know,
but it's also an opportunity.
I mean,
you can.
Um
Change,
change things.
I mean,
it's not just,
you know,
sort of like a civil servant where you have to do everything,
you know,
and you're just
a cog in a machine.
Um,
you can,
you can alter the machine.
Um,
and that's,
that's challenging,
right?
There are a lot of moving parts in the machine and you can't just
Thinker one bit and expect everything to keep on working the way it is.
Um,
So it's an opportunity to do that.
It's also an opportunity to to.
Help your colleagues.
Uh,
either when things go wrong.
Um,
Or er to encourage them and enable them to
achieve things.
that
either they had been thinking about or hadn't thought about it.
Um,
and that's particularly true,
I think,
for,
uh,
um.
Or more junior colleagues who are like only starting doing all of this,
they are sometimes like oh I don't know.
How to do X or,
or,
you know,
I want to do Y,
and figuring out ways to enable them to do that,
so they are satisfied with their job,
so they don't feel stressed.
Um,
and,
and encouraging them so they can
You know,
they can succeed not only in the classroom,
but as,
as professionals in general.
So that's
a certain amount of what goes on as well.
So why do you think so many other universities and colleges
are so eager to model their honors colleges off of Barrett?
Because we're number one in innovation,
um,
I was paid to say that no,
um.
I,
I think.
I'm not a huge fan of,
of,
of the,
the gold standard
thing
because
it just.
To my ears it doesn't sound right,
but
we are
definitely the best honors college in the country.
I,
I think if I wasn't working here I would already know it,
and that's what those colleges and universities know.
um.
That
Over the last 30 years.
Consciously,
and I think to a certain degree,
subconsciously,
um
We've evolved into a
Unit
Where?
We're able to.
Uh,
provide opportunities to students.
And at the same time
remain relatively small.
So,
the thing we usually throw around is the idea that we're
a small liberal arts college within a larger research university.
And I think that's true.
It's it became particularly more true when we moved into
the new campus here,
the new buildings,
because Hogwarts are not,
gates are not,
it still made it sort of feel like a smaller place,
you know,
you walk down the
breezeway,
you run into students and you go to the dining hall,
you run into students.
Excuse me,
um,
But we're surrounded by this.
Sea resources.
And um.
So that enables a student
to feel like they're part of a smaller community.
Yet at the same time
Have everything they could possibly want.
And I think that's one of the reasons
we do attract students,
in-state students,
for example,
who could have gone to um
California schools or something like that.
Uh,
because they wanted
the individualized attention,
but it was so expensive.
Um,
so,
so I think it's that sort of combination thing that we've got,
we've somehow we've
consciously put together
an
educational experience.
That
if,
and I think this is really important,
if a student decides to take advantage of it.
But
can give wonderful things.
So if you,
for example,
see the thesis as an opportunity
rather than
something I have to do,
right,
you're going to have a radically different experience.
Uh,
and you know,
it's,
it's fair enough.
I mean some students come in with the idea of checking all the boxes.
I'm really only doing this so I can enroll you for courses early,
get registration early or something like that.
I mean we all know one of those students,
right?
Um,
and then there are students who just embrace the whole thing,
uh,
get involved with,
you know,
service projects,
get involved with the day to day running of the college or like yourself doing this,
for example,
um,
who say this is an opportunity to.
be part of something bigger and and and get
these opportunities and all that sort of stuff.
And then there are students in the middle,
right?
But
I,
I think
one of the reasons we are the
The best honors college is also because
I believe what's happened to ASU.
In my time here.
Uh,
my 24 years here,
uh,
that change has been so radical.
And it's,
but it's enabled so many opportunities to exist as well.
So,
the the sort of
intersection between
What Barrett was able to do and what ASU has been able to do,
I think
makes
Both
things.
Better.
And for us,
it's the fact that we then have universities and colleges coming
over here and trying to figure out how we do it.
That makes sense?
OK.
Uh,
so what is the value of Barrett for Arizona in general,
do you think?
I'm sure if you asked some administrator over in Fulton,
they'd have a dollar value that they'd be able to give you,
you know.
I think pragmatically one of the things we do is
We keep
The best
students
from Arizona,
in Arizona.
So,
it's generally known that
If you go away.
You're less likely to come back,
so.
Um,
resources that,
say for example,
the State,
and unfortunately the State doesn't put enough resources into it,
pump
pump into a good student in high school.
Then
they
that those resources ultimately leave.
Um,
and so if we get good high achieving students
who,
uh,
for whatever reason could get into the Stanford's or
Berkeley or you know whatever.
And instead go,
I'm going to stay in Arizona because I can get a similar
or even better
experience in many ways.
Um,
Here at ASU
because of our,
because of all these resources that we have,
because of the opportunities that we get.
Um.
And I can do it cheaper,
right,
because I've got a president's scholarship or something like that.
That's the value
for Arizona.
Because I look at what some of
our students do
in the community.
Um,
And
because they're staying here.
Because they're not on the west coast,
because they're not on the east coast.
Um,
and I think that's that's the trickle down as well.
So,
I was
one of the things that Barrett has put in place is,
it used to be the Circumnavigators Award,
which was
An outside group
which would fund
a student to go one way around the world.
In their summer between their junior and senior year,
and they could stop off at up to 6 places,
and they have to do a research project.
Fantastic experience for someone.
Well,
the circumnavigators no longer did it.
Uh,
and,
uh,
Byt stepped in
Dean Jacobs decided that we would fund one of these things.
And then we got some outside,
an outside donor.
Uh,
to help as well.
Uh,
so just yesterday I was,
uh,
Along with
two of my colleagues,
uh,
deciding who the final winner for this year is.
We had 6 great applicants,
right,
but one of them,
for example,
currently is working on urban farming
here in the valley
with Saint Vincent de Paul
and all these sorts of things.
Do great work,
right,
um.
Here's the thing,
if
she hadn't stayed in the valley,
Perhaps because of Barrett or something like that,
and had gone off
to California,
then they're benefiting from that.
Right.
Um,
so,
there's the perceptible
stuff,
um,
you know,
I think the argument could be made that,
you know,
having Bart.
He
helps radically the
What's the word I wanna use.
The standing of ASU.
Just as
As an educational unit.
Uh,
but then there's all those little trickle-out things.
Right,
that some of them are immeasurable,
some of them are not quantifiable,
but are the sorts of things that you hear
on a day to day basis when you're talking with students about what they're doing,
when you're
working with them on thesess and stuff like that.
Another simple example is um
I can't remember what it's called again,
but the Tuesdays when they bring
students in
from er
Middle schools.
And,
um,
In Phoenix
to experience
university.
Many of these kids
would never have been told that they could go to university or whatever,
but to experience and then for the,
oh it's talent match,
that's what it's called.
There we go,
and then have the students,
you know,
teach the kids some skill or
play music or soccer or something like that.
And so that's positive mentoring and whatever.
And
if that inspires.
5% of those
kids to go,
I can go to college,
I want to go to college.
Uh,
that's something good for Arizona.
So,
I mean,
there are all these little things that I don't think people
Possibly know that Barrett does.
And certainly,
you know,
state legislature probably has no clue,
but I think it adds value to the community,
not only in Tempe,
but I think in Arizona.
Right,
so what do you see in Barrett's future?
Hoverboards,
they promised us hoverboards,
um
ah.
I don't know,
I'm not,
I'm,
I'm remarkably bad at predicting the future.
Um
I think,
I think we're going to expand,
uh,
but
Not here in Tempe.
I think it's going to be downtown
Poly,
for example,
West.
Uh,
where we literally have more space.
Although
downtown is a bit of an issue,
but.
Um,
I,
I honestly,
I,
I honestly don't know.
Um,
I think one of the things that's going to
be interesting is certainly over the next decade,
given what's happening technologically and given the
fact that the students are more sort of
Screen-based,
um.
I think
there may very well be some tweaks that have to be made
to what happens in the classroom and all these sorts of things.
Uh.
What they may look like I have no clue.
Um,
I think.
Given what we're doing at the moment,
encouraging students to
travel in some form or function,
so we've got,
you know,
the standard studies abroad,
you know,
the summer,
4 or 5 weeks or whatever,
we've got
global intensive experiences which are
usually about 10 days,
so.
So in May,
I'm going to Iceland,
for example.
Um
And.
We've also got.
Uh,
through a donor,
we've got travel opportunities here,
uh,
within the states,
which are cheaper,
obviously and less time commitment and all that sort of stuff.
Um,
Given,
I think definitely in the future is an expansion
for the continued expansion because I think
all of us,
certainly all the faculty and the administration and Dean Jains and Dean Foote.
Do realize the value of travel.
Um,
and those sorts of experiences that we had
started talking about at the very beginning,
right?
Um,
so I can see that expanding and becoming a thing.
Now,
whether it reaches the sort of,
in a decade from now,
say for example,
if it reaches this,
what I would like,
as I said,
everybody's able to do it at no cost and whatever,
that's
We'd have to say.
But uh.
Yeah,
I mean,
That's,
that's a tougher question than you than you can possibly think it is.
That's what I was going to say to you.
So do you have any other additional comments you'd like to
make or short stories you'd like to share or anything?
Oh,
boy,
oh boy,
oh boy.
Um.
I don't know,
I mean,
the the the comment would be more um.
The 2nd or 3rd longest serving faculty member,
so.
Uh,
Mike Stanford left for law school and law practice for a while.
So whether we count his time or not,
right,
so,
but it,
you know,
Karen ruined myself,
uh,
and Mike Stanford are the top 3 faculty members.
And when we started.
There are 9 of us.
And we were over in Irish Hall and it was this,
it was a great thing,
don't get me wrong.
Um,
and,
you know,
what Ted Humphrey had put together was just fantastic.
Um.
Nobody would have
told me in my wildest dreams that,
you know,
18 years later,
we'd have 40+ faculty.
We'd have,
you know,
the number of students that we have.
We
You know,
have a place like,
you know,
the current building here.
I would have probably called him insane.
You know,
it was just like,
nah,
there's no way that could happen.
Um
You know,
and I think
Between Ted Humphrey and Mark Jacobs,
I think they've done
amazing work to
to foster us through that.
I mean,
there's,
you know,
there's always
with any kind of kind of expansion,
there's,
you know,
moments of pressure and tension and how do we maintain this,
and how do we do that,
and all that sort of stuff.
So being a part of that roller coaster ride
has been kind of
fun,
totally unpredicted.
Right,
uh,
but fun.
You know,
and
Um.
You know that's.
That's basically all I want to say about that.
Um,
I don't think I have any cute story to to to tell.
You know,
which is probably good.
Um,
it's just,
it's just been an interesting ride,
a very interesting ride.
Um.
Yeah,
we'll see what the next decade holds.
All right.
Well,
thank you so much for your participation.
If you have any more thoughts to share later,
please feel free to reach out.
If you have any questions about this interview for the,
or the 30th anniversary Oral History Project,
please contact Vice Dean Nicola Food.
All right.