WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.250 --> 00:00:00.910 Generally good. 2 00:00:02.980 --> 00:00:04.210 Well then so let's say I have 40 things that 3 00:00:04.210 --> 00:00:07.230 I'm thinking about and 36 of them are going well and 4 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:08.859 2 of them I'm struggling with. 5 00:00:08.970 --> 00:00:11.510 One is a total disaster and one is I wish I, 6 00:00:11.850 --> 00:00:11.970 you know, 7 00:00:12.050 --> 00:00:13.149 had never met that person. 8 00:00:13.210 --> 00:00:13.869 And so 9 00:00:14.130 --> 00:00:15.100 other than that, 10 00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.260 you're 11 00:00:16.889 --> 00:00:17.370 so far 12 00:00:19.010 --> 00:00:19.840 you're drinking tea, 13 00:00:19.889 --> 00:00:20.110 right? 14 00:00:20.729 --> 00:00:21.920 So that means you're relaxing. 15 00:00:22.840 --> 00:00:23.930 Is that English breakfast tea? 16 00:00:24.250 --> 00:00:24.530 Yes, 17 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:25.430 which is really good. 18 00:00:26.430 --> 00:00:28.409 That and Earl Grey are my two favorite teas. 19 00:00:28.549 --> 00:00:29.729 That's my boyfriend's favorite. 20 00:00:29.819 --> 00:00:30.040 Yeah, 21 00:00:30.229 --> 00:00:30.270 well, 22 00:00:30.350 --> 00:00:31.719 Earl Grey has the flowers in it, 23 00:00:31.829 --> 00:00:32.168 so 24 00:00:32.590 --> 00:00:32.860 yeah, 25 00:00:34.169 --> 00:00:34.180 yeah, 26 00:00:34.229 --> 00:00:35.330 it has an aromatic, 27 00:00:35.459 --> 00:00:35.659 uh, 28 00:00:35.830 --> 00:00:37.729 set of flowers that give it a distinctive 29 00:00:38.069 --> 00:00:38.529 flavor. 30 00:00:39.169 --> 00:00:39.180 Yeah, 31 00:00:40.740 --> 00:00:42.810 to me it doesn't have enough kick as English breakfast. 32 00:00:43.090 --> 00:00:45.540 English breakfast tea is designed to move your body forward. 33 00:00:46.750 --> 00:00:46.990 Exactly. 34 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:49.279 Are you good, 35 00:00:49.290 --> 00:00:49.299 Chris? 36 00:00:49.310 --> 00:00:49.319 Yeah, 37 00:00:49.409 --> 00:00:51.479 I'm Energy drinks have more caffeine than tea. 38 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:52.939 I can never stand energy drink. 39 00:00:53.590 --> 00:00:54.209 They just like. 40 00:00:54.770 --> 00:00:55.130 Tea. 41 00:00:55.610 --> 00:00:56.130 I like tea. 42 00:00:56.500 --> 00:00:57.459 I just count down energy drinks. 43 00:00:58.130 --> 00:00:58.880 Are we ready to head? 44 00:00:59.479 --> 00:00:59.830 OK. 45 00:01:00.490 --> 00:01:00.819 Hi. 46 00:01:00.970 --> 00:01:01.779 So I'm Emma Vandenni. 47 00:01:02.080 --> 00:01:04.489 This is Joshua Pardey and Primro Zenga 48 00:01:04.769 --> 00:01:07.279 interviewing President Michael Crowe on February 1st at 49 00:01:07.279 --> 00:01:09.629 8:30 a.m. in the Fulton Foundation room. 50 00:01:09.809 --> 00:01:10.199 Um, 51 00:01:10.290 --> 00:01:12.370 this interview is part of the Barrett Oral History Project, 52 00:01:12.410 --> 00:01:15.050 and our goal is to preserve a record of Barrett's history in honor 53 00:01:15.050 --> 00:01:18.050 of Barrett's 30th anniversary as the oldest honor college in the nation. 54 00:01:18.529 --> 00:01:21.760 So thank you so much for sitting down and taking some time to answer our questions. 55 00:01:21.839 --> 00:01:24.970 We have 6 questions prepared and we're looking forward to your in-depth answer 56 00:01:25.169 --> 00:01:25.690 answers. 57 00:01:25.930 --> 00:01:25.970 Well, 58 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:26.199 let me, 59 00:01:26.260 --> 00:01:27.690 let me say something about honors colleges. 60 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:28.540 So this is something that, 61 00:01:28.569 --> 00:01:29.489 that people don't realize. 62 00:01:29.569 --> 00:01:30.080 And so, 63 00:01:30.370 --> 00:01:30.449 you know, 64 00:01:30.610 --> 00:01:31.110 Barrett, 65 00:01:31.129 --> 00:01:31.559 uh, 66 00:01:31.690 --> 00:01:31.769 uh, 67 00:01:31.849 --> 00:01:34.669 the honors college at ASU is a fantastic, 68 00:01:35.089 --> 00:01:36.489 fantastic institution. 69 00:01:36.610 --> 00:01:37.190 It has. 70 00:01:37.669 --> 00:01:37.949 Uh, 71 00:01:38.069 --> 00:01:39.029 created a teaching, 72 00:01:39.150 --> 00:01:39.379 learning, 73 00:01:39.389 --> 00:01:42.190 and discovery environment that's equal to any environment that's out there. 74 00:01:42.269 --> 00:01:42.489 But 75 00:01:42.709 --> 00:01:43.470 what people don't realize, 76 00:01:43.510 --> 00:01:44.230 like where I came from, 77 00:01:44.349 --> 00:01:45.529 Columbia University 78 00:01:45.949 --> 00:01:49.250 has at the heart of Columbia University a thing called Columbia College. 79 00:01:49.819 --> 00:01:51.989 Columbia College is the entity that's then 80 00:01:51.989 --> 00:01:54.790 connected to Harvard College at Harvard University, 81 00:01:55.230 --> 00:01:56.989 Yale College at Yale University, 82 00:01:57.059 --> 00:01:57.529 and so 83 00:01:57.699 --> 00:01:59.910 people don't realize that those are honors colleges. 84 00:02:01.489 --> 00:02:04.199 They're the same model but at a different 85 00:02:04.690 --> 00:02:06.290 kind of historical institution. 86 00:02:06.300 --> 00:02:06.800 And so, 87 00:02:07.290 --> 00:02:07.599 so, 88 00:02:07.750 --> 00:02:09.199 so what I mean by that is that, 89 00:02:09.210 --> 00:02:09.570 uh, 90 00:02:10.169 --> 00:02:11.589 Barrett Honors College, 91 00:02:12.220 --> 00:02:13.059 Columbia College, 92 00:02:13.210 --> 00:02:13.889 Harvard College, 93 00:02:14.050 --> 00:02:14.889 Yale College, 94 00:02:15.289 --> 00:02:15.539 uh, 95 00:02:15.690 --> 00:02:21.210 they are the same kind of place and I'm what I'm very proud of in our case is our 96 00:02:21.649 --> 00:02:23.029 level of um 97 00:02:23.410 --> 00:02:24.089 diversity, 98 00:02:24.130 --> 00:02:27.210 the number of intellectual pursuits that our students can take, 99 00:02:27.330 --> 00:02:29.130 the number of double and triple majors. 100 00:02:29.559 --> 00:02:30.059 Uh, 101 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:30.320 at 102 00:02:30.679 --> 00:02:31.910 some of those honors colleges, 103 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:32.190 uh, 104 00:02:32.320 --> 00:02:33.899 the Ivy League ones in particular, 105 00:02:34.309 --> 00:02:34.550 uh, 106 00:02:34.720 --> 00:02:37.059 you only have a handful of majors that you can pursue. 107 00:02:37.839 --> 00:02:41.710 Here our students can take hundreds of different options and mixing and matching, 108 00:02:41.720 --> 00:02:42.800 and not just on this campus, 109 00:02:43.119 --> 00:02:43.130 right. 110 00:02:43.410 --> 00:02:45.750 I know I'm from the downtown campus and Joshua, 111 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:47.229 he takes most of his classes here, 112 00:02:47.320 --> 00:02:48.190 but he's, 113 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:48.630 uh, 114 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:50.020 lives around the West campus area, 115 00:02:50.119 --> 00:02:50.330 right? 116 00:02:50.720 --> 00:02:52.199 So I mean I just wanted to get that out there that 117 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.490 people don't realize that what we've done here in the last 30 years 118 00:02:55.139 --> 00:02:56.380 is built a, 119 00:02:56.399 --> 00:02:56.630 uh, 120 00:02:56.679 --> 00:02:57.660 a modern. 121 00:02:58.369 --> 00:02:58.660 Uh, 122 00:02:58.699 --> 00:02:59.360 hyper, 123 00:02:59.580 --> 00:02:59.960 uh, 124 00:03:00.020 --> 00:03:01.440 intellectually broad, 125 00:03:01.940 --> 00:03:02.289 uh, 126 00:03:02.300 --> 00:03:05.460 honors college on the same fundamental basis as 127 00:03:05.460 --> 00:03:07.979 the idea of Harvard College or Columbia College, 128 00:03:08.410 --> 00:03:08.500 uh, 129 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:12.339 but on a much broader spectrum with a very diverse student body, 130 00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:13.020 uh, 131 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:15.460 and at a very large scale. 132 00:03:16.160 --> 00:03:16.630 Yeah, 133 00:03:16.949 --> 00:03:17.529 um, 134 00:03:17.949 --> 00:03:18.289 going 135 00:03:18.429 --> 00:03:18.710 back, 136 00:03:18.750 --> 00:03:19.059 uh, 137 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:19.589 a little bit, 138 00:03:19.630 --> 00:03:20.149 I guess this, 139 00:03:20.259 --> 00:03:21.369 this kind of relates to your, 140 00:03:21.429 --> 00:03:23.029 your point that you just made, 141 00:03:23.210 --> 00:03:23.690 um, 142 00:03:23.990 --> 00:03:27.009 I just want to kind of get your own opinion like why do you think, 143 00:03:27.190 --> 00:03:27.860 what do you think, 144 00:03:27.869 --> 00:03:28.369 like, 145 00:03:28.440 --> 00:03:29.050 uh, 146 00:03:29.460 --> 00:03:31.419 why do you think an honors college is important for students? 147 00:03:31.470 --> 00:03:32.020 Like I know you, 148 00:03:32.070 --> 00:03:32.160 so, 149 00:03:32.229 --> 00:03:33.949 so I have a different view about honors colleges. 150 00:03:34.029 --> 00:03:34.229 So, 151 00:03:34.350 --> 00:03:34.669 so, 152 00:03:34.929 --> 00:03:37.729 so honors colleges to me are a highly 153 00:03:38.190 --> 00:03:40.009 designed learning environment 154 00:03:40.470 --> 00:03:42.889 for students with a particular approach to learning. 155 00:03:43.410 --> 00:03:48.149 So I'm not a big believer that somehow honors colleges are something in which 156 00:03:48.729 --> 00:03:49.089 medal, 157 00:03:49.220 --> 00:03:52.309 that is they like Olympic medal high school students 158 00:03:52.570 --> 00:03:55.559 are coming in to get further Olympic medals in college. 159 00:03:55.610 --> 00:03:56.690 It's a place where 160 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:58.910 a kid who's interested in 161 00:03:59.410 --> 00:04:00.330 operatic, 162 00:04:00.490 --> 00:04:01.000 uh, 163 00:04:01.009 --> 00:04:01.600 um, 164 00:04:01.970 --> 00:04:05.529 singing can also double major in biomedical engineering 165 00:04:05.529 --> 00:04:08.350 and pick up Arabic as a side language because 166 00:04:08.570 --> 00:04:09.410 that's the way they learn. 167 00:04:09.529 --> 00:04:09.619 Now, 168 00:04:09.649 --> 00:04:10.589 I was one of those kids. 169 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:13.440 I wanted to major in 5 different subjects simultaneously, 170 00:04:13.559 --> 00:04:14.500 so I wanted to be, 171 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.079 I wanted to study political science. 172 00:04:16.119 --> 00:04:17.519 I wanted to study environmental science. 173 00:04:17.559 --> 00:04:18.709 I wanted to study engineering, 174 00:04:18.760 --> 00:04:19.470 linguistics, 175 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:20.608 and anthropology. 176 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:23.239 And so when I showed up to the university that I went to, 177 00:04:23.309 --> 00:04:24.799 I said I wanted to major in these 5 things, 178 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:25.299 and they said, 179 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:26.079 no, 180 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:26.660 little boy, 181 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:27.589 uh, 182 00:04:27.679 --> 00:04:27.839 you, 183 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:29.130 you have to pick one. 184 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:30.320 And I said I can't do that. 185 00:04:30.359 --> 00:04:30.600 And they said, 186 00:04:30.679 --> 00:04:30.799 OK, 187 00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:32.570 well then you're in distributed studies. 188 00:04:33.130 --> 00:04:35.369 And they said distributive studies is for the stupid little 189 00:04:35.369 --> 00:04:37.170 boys like you who can't decide what they wanna do. 190 00:04:37.290 --> 00:04:37.720 And so, 191 00:04:38.010 --> 00:04:38.329 so what, 192 00:04:38.429 --> 00:04:39.010 what I 193 00:04:39.410 --> 00:04:40.890 think our honors college is, 194 00:04:40.929 --> 00:04:42.309 is a place for 195 00:04:42.640 --> 00:04:44.299 highly energized, 196 00:04:44.380 --> 00:04:44.790 uh, 197 00:04:44.799 --> 00:04:45.809 individuals on 198 00:04:46.329 --> 00:04:47.359 two dimensions. 199 00:04:47.850 --> 00:04:49.470 One dimension is the. 200 00:04:50.109 --> 00:04:50.309 You know, 201 00:04:50.390 --> 00:04:54.269 the English major who is already a poet who wants 202 00:04:54.269 --> 00:04:58.070 to devote every ounce of their energy to their creative expression 203 00:04:58.269 --> 00:05:02.489 and wants to be overwhelmed with all of the complexity of English poetry. 204 00:05:04.029 --> 00:05:04.179 Uh, 205 00:05:04.190 --> 00:05:05.390 the other is the student, 206 00:05:05.510 --> 00:05:08.230 and it could be true in physics or chemistry or engineering or whatever, 207 00:05:08.269 --> 00:05:09.609 and the other is this person. 208 00:05:10.809 --> 00:05:13.290 Who wants to be completely immersed 209 00:05:13.529 --> 00:05:15.549 in the totality of learning 210 00:05:15.989 --> 00:05:17.010 without distraction, 211 00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:17.670 without 212 00:05:18.049 --> 00:05:18.829 constraint, 213 00:05:19.149 --> 00:05:21.320 and that's to me what an honors college is all about, 214 00:05:21.329 --> 00:05:22.920 and that's what that's what Barrett is about. 215 00:05:22.970 --> 00:05:23.079 Now, 216 00:05:23.089 --> 00:05:23.549 the same 217 00:05:24.049 --> 00:05:25.630 equally capable kid 218 00:05:26.290 --> 00:05:27.160 may say, 219 00:05:27.489 --> 00:05:27.609 you know, 220 00:05:27.690 --> 00:05:30.570 I just want to study chemical engineering and work at my dad's company. 221 00:05:31.390 --> 00:05:32.459 And fine. 222 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:35.160 Or you know what I really wanna do is keep playing in 223 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:38.079 my band and I wanna get a degree in business communications, 224 00:05:38.359 --> 00:05:38.480 you know, 225 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:38.640 I, 226 00:05:38.690 --> 00:05:39.589 I just wanna get the, 227 00:05:39.679 --> 00:05:40.019 the, 228 00:05:40.119 --> 00:05:41.630 the what I call the mini max. 229 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.660 So honors college students are what I call maxi max. 230 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.459 So the maximum amount of the maximum effort, 231 00:05:48.359 --> 00:05:49.440 and then a lot of people, 232 00:05:49.559 --> 00:05:50.440 and it is rational, 233 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:51.170 by the way, 234 00:05:51.320 --> 00:05:52.359 to be mini max, 235 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:55.339 the minimum amount of the maximum effort. 236 00:05:55.679 --> 00:05:56.079 And so, 237 00:05:56.190 --> 00:05:58.320 and so we need an environment for the maximaxes. 238 00:05:58.929 --> 00:06:01.769 And so Barrett is a place where Maxi Maxes go. 239 00:06:02.059 --> 00:06:03.690 I love that vocabulary word. 240 00:06:03.929 --> 00:06:05.799 So now we're gonna jump a little bit more into the history. 241 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:06.220 Um, 242 00:06:06.339 --> 00:06:08.170 so you became president in 2002, 243 00:06:08.380 --> 00:06:08.940 before you were born. 244 00:06:09.019 --> 00:06:09.359 Yes. 245 00:06:10.380 --> 00:06:10.700 Well, 246 00:06:10.820 --> 00:06:11.940 we were one or two, 247 00:06:12.130 --> 00:06:14.570 and it seems that one of your priorities was 248 00:06:14.570 --> 00:06:17.510 heavily developing and investing in the honors college and, 249 00:06:17.529 --> 00:06:17.959 um, 250 00:06:18.299 --> 00:06:19.119 transforming it into 251 00:06:19.260 --> 00:06:20.980 what is now called the gold standard of honors 252 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:23.760 colleges and a residential college which didn't exist before. 253 00:06:24.200 --> 00:06:24.369 Uh, 254 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:24.989 with its own 255 00:06:25.369 --> 00:06:26.750 facilities and its own, 256 00:06:27.130 --> 00:06:27.369 you know, 257 00:06:27.489 --> 00:06:28.450 connections in new ways. 258 00:06:28.529 --> 00:06:29.720 So those are decisions that we made. 259 00:06:29.809 --> 00:06:29.929 Yes, 260 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:30.290 true. 261 00:06:30.450 --> 00:06:31.839 So going a little bit more into that, 262 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.869 could you share more about the development of the Baird Honor College and some 263 00:06:35.170 --> 00:06:37.070 specific initiatives that helped create it? 264 00:06:37.609 --> 00:06:37.720 So, 265 00:06:37.730 --> 00:06:38.549 its creation, 266 00:06:38.609 --> 00:06:38.839 uh, 267 00:06:38.850 --> 00:06:39.790 back in the, 268 00:06:39.809 --> 00:06:40.140 uh, 269 00:06:40.149 --> 00:06:40.850 80s, 270 00:06:40.890 --> 00:06:41.149 uh, 271 00:06:41.170 --> 00:06:45.209 was really derivative of the emergence of ASU as a real university. 272 00:06:45.290 --> 00:06:45.640 So 273 00:06:45.890 --> 00:06:47.309 ASU didn't become a 274 00:06:47.649 --> 00:06:48.510 comprehensive 275 00:06:49.010 --> 00:06:49.859 opportunity to build a university. 276 00:06:49.929 --> 00:06:51.910 It didn't become a university even as a starting position. 277 00:06:52.179 --> 00:06:53.359 Until 1960, 278 00:06:53.910 --> 00:06:57.769 didn't even begin the process of becoming a research university until 1980, 279 00:06:58.109 --> 00:06:59.510 and President Nelson was here. 280 00:06:59.589 --> 00:07:02.579 He had been the chancellor of the University of Colorado at Boulder, 281 00:07:02.869 --> 00:07:04.070 and he was the person that said, 282 00:07:04.149 --> 00:07:04.309 Well, 283 00:07:04.510 --> 00:07:04.769 you know, 284 00:07:04.950 --> 00:07:08.230 we need a place where these Maximax learners 285 00:07:08.549 --> 00:07:08.970 can go, 286 00:07:09.070 --> 00:07:10.250 so let's get something started. 287 00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:12.250 And so 30 years in the, 288 00:07:12.269 --> 00:07:15.329 in the context of university history is like a nanosecond ago. 289 00:07:15.799 --> 00:07:15.920 You know, 290 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:17.519 Harvard's almost 400 years old. 291 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.339 Oxford and Cambridge are in the range of 1000 years old, 292 00:07:20.559 --> 00:07:20.859 and 293 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:22.640 Barrett Honors College is 30 years old, 294 00:07:22.750 --> 00:07:23.350 so that's a, 295 00:07:23.640 --> 00:07:23.760 you know, 296 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:24.779 a nanosecond. 297 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:28.500 And so what was going on here was we were finding that there were really 298 00:07:28.760 --> 00:07:30.510 large numbers of students who were 299 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:33.019 the same as the students at Harvard College, 300 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:34.959 the same as the students at Stanford. 301 00:07:35.299 --> 00:07:35.779 Uh, 302 00:07:35.859 --> 00:07:36.179 uh, 303 00:07:36.459 --> 00:07:40.549 but generally not from as many from ultra wealthy families. 304 00:07:40.859 --> 00:07:45.079 And so what was being created here was an opportunity to create that kind of college 305 00:07:45.260 --> 00:07:46.019 in Arizona. 306 00:07:46.140 --> 00:07:46.519 So 307 00:07:46.739 --> 00:07:47.929 it was the brilliance of, 308 00:07:48.059 --> 00:07:48.410 of, 309 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:48.880 uh, 310 00:07:49.380 --> 00:07:52.899 the team at the time to launch this fantastic idea 311 00:07:52.899 --> 00:07:55.079 of an honors college which then has evolved at. 312 00:07:55.540 --> 00:07:55.660 You know, 313 00:07:55.739 --> 00:07:58.929 10 times the normal speed of an academic enterprise 314 00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:00.429 because they don't evolve very quickly. 315 00:08:00.869 --> 00:08:00.880 We, 316 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:04.220 so we've done 300 years of evolution in 30 years 317 00:08:04.500 --> 00:08:05.140 and have ended up, 318 00:08:05.179 --> 00:08:06.489 as you have already suggested, 319 00:08:06.500 --> 00:08:07.049 as the, 320 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:08.920 the best of the best of the best. 321 00:08:10.119 --> 00:08:10.440 Uh, 322 00:08:10.559 --> 00:08:12.559 after you became president in 2002, 323 00:08:12.690 --> 00:08:15.959 1 of your first high profile outside hires was Dean Jacobs, 324 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:17.079 who is now one of the 325 00:08:17.359 --> 00:08:19.079 longest serving deans here at ASU. 326 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.359 Probably in the history of the institution also, 327 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:21.829 so, 328 00:08:21.989 --> 00:08:22.260 uh, 329 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:22.709 uh, 330 00:08:22.799 --> 00:08:23.079 he's, 331 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.920 he came from one of the top liberal arts colleges in Swarthmore College, 332 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:27.640 Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania. 333 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:28.079 Uh, 334 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:32.400 so could you mind sharing how hiring him fit into your plans for both ASU and Barrett? 335 00:08:32.479 --> 00:08:37.099 So what we were looking for with Barrett was I wanted to find a person where she or he. 336 00:08:37.590 --> 00:08:38.070 Uh, 337 00:08:38.229 --> 00:08:38.650 could, 338 00:08:38.659 --> 00:08:39.020 uh, 339 00:08:39.030 --> 00:08:41.229 come from one of these honors colleges, 340 00:08:41.630 --> 00:08:42.739 public or private. 341 00:08:43.058 --> 00:08:44.729 I think I probably preferred private, 342 00:08:44.869 --> 00:08:45.150 uh, 343 00:08:45.229 --> 00:08:47.229 to just get every ounce of, 344 00:08:47.669 --> 00:08:49.630 of the ideas out of that institution. 345 00:08:49.750 --> 00:08:50.590 So Mark, 346 00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:51.020 uh, 347 00:08:51.030 --> 00:08:52.070 was a chaired professor. 348 00:08:52.150 --> 00:08:55.109 He was the Centennial Professor of biology at Swarthmore College. 349 00:08:55.150 --> 00:08:56.109 He was the associate 350 00:08:56.510 --> 00:08:57.599 provost at Swarthmore College. 351 00:08:57.669 --> 00:09:00.349 We interviewed him and he knew exactly what we were trying to do. 352 00:09:00.789 --> 00:09:04.109 How do you build a world-class honors college like Swarthmore, 353 00:09:04.309 --> 00:09:05.030 which we have. 354 00:09:05.659 --> 00:09:08.809 But inside a university with 400 majors. 355 00:09:09.659 --> 00:09:11.299 400 degree pathways. 356 00:09:11.780 --> 00:09:13.109 Nothing like that could ever be done. 357 00:09:13.219 --> 00:09:16.440 I used to be a trustee of a college like Swarthmore called Bowdoin College 358 00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:17.419 in Brunswick, 359 00:09:17.530 --> 00:09:17.830 Maine, 360 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:18.369 and, 361 00:09:18.380 --> 00:09:18.799 um, 362 00:09:19.260 --> 00:09:19.750 same thing. 363 00:09:19.900 --> 00:09:20.799 So there they had 364 00:09:20.979 --> 00:09:22.280 a few dozen majors. 365 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:22.849 Uh, 366 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:25.440 they had a few 100 students in the freshman class. 367 00:09:25.770 --> 00:09:26.049 Uh, 368 00:09:26.179 --> 00:09:26.739 and so, 369 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:27.020 uh, 370 00:09:27.140 --> 00:09:28.460 what Mark was really interested in, 371 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:29.859 and this is why we focused on him, 372 00:09:29.900 --> 00:09:31.880 and he's done a fantastic job as the dean, 373 00:09:32.219 --> 00:09:32.340 uh, 374 00:09:32.380 --> 00:09:34.219 it was how do we build the super, 375 00:09:34.340 --> 00:09:34.549 super, 376 00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:34.890 super, 377 00:09:35.020 --> 00:09:36.020 super Swarthmore. 378 00:09:36.369 --> 00:09:37.049 The super, 379 00:09:37.130 --> 00:09:37.489 super, 380 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:37.929 super Williams, 381 00:09:38.010 --> 00:09:38.809 Amherst, 382 00:09:39.169 --> 00:09:39.599 Bowden, 383 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:40.530 uh, 384 00:09:40.539 --> 00:09:40.969 Oberlin, 385 00:09:41.049 --> 00:09:42.150 where my wife went to college, 386 00:09:42.369 --> 00:09:42.830 uh, 387 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:43.049 uh, 388 00:09:43.059 --> 00:09:43.520 Claremont, 389 00:09:43.650 --> 00:09:44.309 Pomona, 390 00:09:44.690 --> 00:09:45.039 uh, 391 00:09:45.109 --> 00:09:45.849 Grinnell, 392 00:09:45.979 --> 00:09:46.320 um, 393 00:09:46.479 --> 00:09:47.770 whatever the school happens to be. 394 00:09:47.859 --> 00:09:50.169 How do we build one of those inside ASU 395 00:09:50.570 --> 00:09:52.750 and then take advantage of the entirety of the university, 396 00:09:52.770 --> 00:09:54.200 and Mark wanted to do that 397 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:55.330 and has done that. 398 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.049 One of my questions that um is always my 399 00:09:59.049 --> 00:10:00.809 favorite one to ask in these types of interviews, 400 00:10:00.929 --> 00:10:03.049 what is one of your best memories or stories 401 00:10:03.049 --> 00:10:04.609 that you have from the history of Barrett? 402 00:10:05.859 --> 00:10:05.929 Well, 403 00:10:05.979 --> 00:10:09.380 I've had a lot of Barrett students in my classes that I teach. 404 00:10:09.780 --> 00:10:10.580 What classes do you teach? 405 00:10:10.700 --> 00:10:10.900 I, 406 00:10:10.979 --> 00:10:11.760 I the most, 407 00:10:11.900 --> 00:10:15.520 the most common class that I teach is a class called Science and Technology 408 00:10:15.859 --> 00:10:16.969 and Public Affairs, 409 00:10:17.289 --> 00:10:19.140 which is a science and technology policy class which 410 00:10:19.140 --> 00:10:21.280 I'm teaching fits your desires that you wanted. 411 00:10:21.750 --> 00:10:21.979 Well anyway, 412 00:10:22.099 --> 00:10:22.190 so, 413 00:10:22.309 --> 00:10:22.500 so, 414 00:10:22.619 --> 00:10:23.219 so it does. 415 00:10:23.299 --> 00:10:23.929 And so, 416 00:10:24.299 --> 00:10:25.000 so exactly. 417 00:10:25.090 --> 00:10:25.659 And so, 418 00:10:25.739 --> 00:10:25.979 uh, 419 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:26.380 like the, 420 00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:30.020 the students that are in there this semester or last year or the year before. 421 00:10:30.260 --> 00:10:32.559 So what I find in the Barrett students is this, 422 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:33.679 um. 423 00:10:36.049 --> 00:10:39.200 Unbridled willingness to engage in 424 00:10:39.369 --> 00:10:41.440 intellectual discourse 425 00:10:41.659 --> 00:10:42.419 at the highest level. 426 00:10:42.460 --> 00:10:42.849 In fact, 427 00:10:43.380 --> 00:10:45.080 within this university community, 428 00:10:45.780 --> 00:10:46.619 including in that class, 429 00:10:46.659 --> 00:10:48.539 which is 3/4 graduate students, 430 00:10:49.020 --> 00:10:52.440 they are unequivocally and always the most courageous, 431 00:10:53.140 --> 00:10:57.719 always the ones trying to learn across the broadest spectrum of learning, 432 00:10:58.140 --> 00:10:58.369 uh, 433 00:10:58.539 --> 00:10:59.979 always double majors, 434 00:11:00.099 --> 00:11:01.159 triple majors, 435 00:11:01.219 --> 00:11:01.500 uh, 436 00:11:01.659 --> 00:11:02.799 multilingual. 437 00:11:03.109 --> 00:11:03.429 Uh, 438 00:11:03.510 --> 00:11:04.690 multi-functional, 439 00:11:04.909 --> 00:11:05.309 you know, 440 00:11:05.390 --> 00:11:05.969 uh, 441 00:11:06.469 --> 00:11:06.830 uh, 442 00:11:07.229 --> 00:11:08.659 piano player, 443 00:11:08.789 --> 00:11:09.309 um, 444 00:11:09.710 --> 00:11:11.169 piano concert piano, 445 00:11:11.239 --> 00:11:11.429 uh, 446 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:12.270 master, 447 00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:13.190 uh, 448 00:11:13.349 --> 00:11:14.489 drum major, 449 00:11:15.260 --> 00:11:15.539 you know, 450 00:11:15.750 --> 00:11:17.989 mashed in with economics and philosophy, 451 00:11:18.030 --> 00:11:18.570 and I'm like, 452 00:11:18.890 --> 00:11:20.070 and now we got something to talk about. 453 00:11:20.390 --> 00:11:20.710 And so, 454 00:11:20.830 --> 00:11:24.729 so what I find in the course and the way that it works is that they are always. 455 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:27.429 The ones driving the hardest and so 456 00:11:27.570 --> 00:11:27.989 my 457 00:11:28.169 --> 00:11:31.229 remembrance of the honors college is my engagement with honors 458 00:11:31.530 --> 00:11:31.799 students. 459 00:11:31.849 --> 00:11:33.710 Now I've also been on honors, 460 00:11:33.770 --> 00:11:34.150 um, 461 00:11:34.489 --> 00:11:34.679 uh, 462 00:11:34.690 --> 00:11:35.909 thesis committees, 463 00:11:36.210 --> 00:11:36.640 uh, 464 00:11:36.719 --> 00:11:37.669 and reviewers. 465 00:11:37.690 --> 00:11:39.210 And so one of my students who took my class, 466 00:11:39.289 --> 00:11:40.400 who then did an honors thesis, 467 00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:40.929 who then 468 00:11:41.169 --> 00:11:43.169 finished her PhD in like 6 months 469 00:11:43.409 --> 00:11:43.869 here, 470 00:11:43.929 --> 00:11:44.080 uh, 471 00:11:44.169 --> 00:11:47.500 who's now at Stanford Law School on a full ride scholarship, 472 00:11:48.340 --> 00:11:48.969 I'm just like, 473 00:11:49.330 --> 00:11:49.440 like, 474 00:11:49.469 --> 00:11:49.729 dude, 475 00:11:49.809 --> 00:11:50.109 I mean. 476 00:11:51.260 --> 00:11:51.270 Uh, 477 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:53.190 I could only wish 478 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:55.479 that I had half of your ability. 479 00:11:55.989 --> 00:11:56.000 Uh, 480 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:57.780 and so I've also met people, 481 00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:58.099 uh, 482 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.739 coming through the honors college who are unparalleled. 483 00:12:01.229 --> 00:12:01.250 Uh, 484 00:12:01.599 --> 00:12:03.260 so there was an honors college graduate from, 485 00:12:03.380 --> 00:12:03.630 I think, 486 00:12:03.640 --> 00:12:05.700 the early 2000s named Matthew Desmond. 487 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:07.119 I don't know if you guys track him. 488 00:12:07.719 --> 00:12:09.460 So he's a local kid from Arizona. 489 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:10.710 So, 490 00:12:10.719 --> 00:12:11.190 uh, 491 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:11.780 he, 492 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:12.400 um. 493 00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:14.469 Grew up near Winslow, 494 00:12:14.549 --> 00:12:15.200 Arizona, 495 00:12:15.789 --> 00:12:18.580 so he now is a full professor at Princeton in an endowed chair. 496 00:12:18.630 --> 00:12:20.210 I think he's like 35 years old, 497 00:12:20.549 --> 00:12:21.849 but last year he won 498 00:12:22.030 --> 00:12:23.890 the Pulitzer Prize 499 00:12:24.229 --> 00:12:25.849 and a MacArthur Genius award. 500 00:12:27.070 --> 00:12:27.530 I'm like, 501 00:12:27.690 --> 00:12:27.869 yeah, 502 00:12:27.989 --> 00:12:29.309 that's what Barrett produces, 503 00:12:29.590 --> 00:12:30.020 absolutely. 504 00:12:31.020 --> 00:12:33.869 Do you have a favorite like thesis project that you oversaw? 505 00:12:35.599 --> 00:12:35.859 Well, 506 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:36.280 I mean, 507 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:36.950 um, 508 00:12:38.169 --> 00:12:38.809 The, 509 00:12:38.929 --> 00:12:39.469 the 510 00:12:39.770 --> 00:12:41.969 most exciting projects that I've been involved with, 511 00:12:42.090 --> 00:12:42.590 with 512 00:12:42.729 --> 00:12:43.849 Barrett is when the, 513 00:12:43.969 --> 00:12:45.090 so when I was at Columbia, 514 00:12:45.169 --> 00:12:46.450 we could give A pluses. 515 00:12:47.210 --> 00:12:50.510 And so I gave A pluses to uh students that taught me. 516 00:12:50.619 --> 00:12:52.700 So the condition to get an A plus was, 517 00:12:53.059 --> 00:12:53.940 did you teach me? 518 00:12:54.309 --> 00:12:56.109 Did I learn from you as a student? 519 00:12:56.460 --> 00:12:58.210 If I learned from you as a student, 520 00:12:58.539 --> 00:12:59.820 I don't even care how you did on a test. 521 00:12:59.859 --> 00:13:00.739 I gave you an A plus. 522 00:13:01.539 --> 00:13:02.380 I don't care about your paper. 523 00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:04.299 If I learned from you and you're that smart, 524 00:13:04.419 --> 00:13:05.419 I gave you an A+. 525 00:13:06.010 --> 00:13:06.659 And so I, 526 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:10.570 I've had many A+ experiences with Barrett students where they're teaching me, 527 00:13:10.859 --> 00:13:12.270 where they're bringing in some angle, 528 00:13:12.380 --> 00:13:13.179 some perspective, 529 00:13:13.299 --> 00:13:13.659 some, 530 00:13:13.859 --> 00:13:15.039 some way of thinking. 531 00:13:15.690 --> 00:13:16.369 And so I, 532 00:13:16.419 --> 00:13:17.260 I graduated from, 533 00:13:17.299 --> 00:13:17.659 I, 534 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:19.059 I graduated from college, 535 00:13:19.140 --> 00:13:19.309 uh, 536 00:13:19.400 --> 00:13:21.479 42 years ago. 537 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:22.109 Uh, 538 00:13:22.179 --> 00:13:24.669 last year was the year that I learned the most, 539 00:13:25.059 --> 00:13:26.840 so I've been in college for 42 years. 540 00:13:27.590 --> 00:13:29.700 And so there were Barrett students last year that. 541 00:13:30.770 --> 00:13:31.349 Taught me, 542 00:13:31.770 --> 00:13:33.880 even though I've been in college for 42 years, 543 00:13:34.210 --> 00:13:35.630 so some 19-year-old kid 544 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:38.869 with a with a 1000 horsepower brain 545 00:13:39.650 --> 00:13:41.349 tied into the internet, 546 00:13:41.729 --> 00:13:41.739 uh, 547 00:13:42.190 --> 00:13:42.289 you know, 548 00:13:42.530 --> 00:13:43.690 dreaming and imagining, 549 00:13:43.770 --> 00:13:47.369 so the most powerful human expression is imagination. 550 00:13:47.849 --> 00:13:50.890 So if you match that intellect level with imagination 551 00:13:50.890 --> 00:13:53.250 in a young person who's fearless about the future, 552 00:13:53.549 --> 00:13:55.309 they're going to teach an old person like me 553 00:13:55.489 --> 00:13:56.130 all kinds of things. 554 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:57.630 And so my experiences with, 555 00:13:57.640 --> 00:13:57.950 with uh. 556 00:13:58.429 --> 00:13:59.729 Barrett's students are 557 00:14:00.229 --> 00:14:01.609 about learning from them. 558 00:14:03.780 --> 00:14:05.979 Going back to the idea that the Barrett Honors 559 00:14:05.979 --> 00:14:08.250 College is a unique learning environment for students, 560 00:14:08.539 --> 00:14:10.979 I understand that you attended attended 17 561 00:14:10.979 --> 00:14:13.140 different schools before you graduated high school, 562 00:14:13.739 --> 00:14:16.239 so you experienced the ones I stayed at longer than 2 weeks. 563 00:14:17.280 --> 00:14:17.289 Oh. 564 00:14:18.109 --> 00:14:18.700 Through those, 565 00:14:18.750 --> 00:14:19.150 uh, 566 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:22.049 experiences you found many different ways of approaching 567 00:14:22.989 --> 00:14:23.000 education. 568 00:14:23.010 --> 00:14:25.280 So how have your unique experiences in grade school 569 00:14:25.280 --> 00:14:27.710 helped you form the gold standard of honors colleges? 570 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:27.950 Well, 571 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:29.030 the first thing that happened when you moved 572 00:14:29.030 --> 00:14:31.159 around from town to town in working class communities 573 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.299 like I did was that you first had to defend yourself because you're gonna get beat up. 574 00:14:34.590 --> 00:14:34.900 Uh, 575 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:38.369 and so my hands are covered with the scars of other little boys' teeth, 576 00:14:38.380 --> 00:14:38.869 uh, 577 00:14:38.909 --> 00:14:39.510 and so, 578 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:39.750 uh, 579 00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:41.760 battling in every school imaginable. 580 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:42.960 So that's learning also. 581 00:14:43.400 --> 00:14:46.280 And then there's adjusting to people that are biased and bigoted, 582 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:47.070 uh, 583 00:14:47.119 --> 00:14:47.429 and, 584 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:47.659 uh, 585 00:14:47.669 --> 00:14:50.390 don't like people that look like me or wear the clothes 586 00:14:50.390 --> 00:14:53.460 that I wore or spoke with the accent that I have. 587 00:14:53.880 --> 00:14:54.799 I have an accent, 588 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:55.400 and, 589 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.380 and my accent wasn't as popular in Florida 590 00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:00.539 or Tennessee or Texas, 591 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:01.450 uh, 592 00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:01.880 uh, 593 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:03.719 or Maryland or other places that we lived, 594 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:04.460 Missouri, 595 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:05.150 uh, 596 00:15:05.239 --> 00:15:05.950 and so, 597 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:07.840 so you learn from that also. 598 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.219 So learning is not just about your academic. 599 00:15:10.750 --> 00:15:11.190 Ability. 600 00:15:11.309 --> 00:15:15.330 So the other thing that I learned in those 17 schools and moving around is the 601 00:15:15.830 --> 00:15:17.409 unbelievably uh 602 00:15:17.510 --> 00:15:20.489 and overly rigid educational models that 603 00:15:20.789 --> 00:15:22.760 force people to learn in, 604 00:15:22.770 --> 00:15:23.250 um, 605 00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:24.880 mechanistic ways. 606 00:15:24.950 --> 00:15:26.809 And so the French philosopher, 607 00:15:27.229 --> 00:15:27.440 uh, 608 00:15:27.549 --> 00:15:28.049 writer, 609 00:15:28.109 --> 00:15:28.380 uh, 610 00:15:28.390 --> 00:15:29.229 Foucault, 611 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:29.710 you know, 612 00:15:29.789 --> 00:15:31.849 basically says if you want to change 613 00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:32.710 education, 614 00:15:32.750 --> 00:15:36.130 then look at the way the seats are nailed to the floor 615 00:15:36.390 --> 00:15:37.289 in a classroom. 616 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.609 Because then that creates the rigidity of a learning environment. 617 00:15:40.719 --> 00:15:42.789 So what I learned growing up was 618 00:15:43.369 --> 00:15:45.359 the rigidity of these environments that I was going through. 619 00:15:45.409 --> 00:15:46.750 So I'd go from one school, 620 00:15:47.330 --> 00:15:47.750 uh, 621 00:15:47.869 --> 00:15:48.479 in one grade, 622 00:15:48.530 --> 00:15:49.890 I'd be like in the 4th grade, 623 00:15:49.969 --> 00:15:50.760 I was in, 624 00:15:50.770 --> 00:15:51.190 um, 625 00:15:52.309 --> 00:15:53.429 School in uh, 626 00:15:53.830 --> 00:15:54.349 in the 3rd grade, 627 00:15:54.390 --> 00:15:55.690 I was in school in California. 628 00:15:56.570 --> 00:15:58.830 Two different schools and then in the 4th grade 629 00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:01.539 I went to 3 schools in metropolitan Chicago, 630 00:16:02.090 --> 00:16:02.450 uh, 631 00:16:02.489 --> 00:16:04.919 and so what I found in all of those environments, 632 00:16:04.969 --> 00:16:07.500 so that's 5 schools in those 2 years, 633 00:16:07.900 --> 00:16:11.549 and what I found in those 2 years was then that the teachers were 634 00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:13.570 relentless bureaucrats, 635 00:16:13.849 --> 00:16:14.080 uh, 636 00:16:14.090 --> 00:16:16.409 built on a rigid model of instruction with no, 637 00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:18.630 no tolerance for variability whatsoever. 638 00:16:19.210 --> 00:16:20.400 Now I'm only in the 4th grade, 639 00:16:20.489 --> 00:16:21.710 so I'm 9 years old, 640 00:16:21.929 --> 00:16:25.030 but I can already tell at 9 years old that there's something wrong. 641 00:16:25.599 --> 00:16:26.380 I don't know what it is, 642 00:16:26.469 --> 00:16:27.239 but I do know that, 643 00:16:27.390 --> 00:16:27.520 you know, 644 00:16:27.599 --> 00:16:28.059 they would, 645 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:28.400 they would say, 646 00:16:28.450 --> 00:16:28.520 well, 647 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:29.030 you don't know this, 648 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:29.750 what's wrong with you? 649 00:16:30.669 --> 00:16:31.229 You don't know this. 650 00:16:31.309 --> 00:16:31.789 What's wrong with you? 651 00:16:31.859 --> 00:16:32.989 So I have this joke that I, 652 00:16:33.070 --> 00:16:35.890 that I developed over time that I know nothing about the comma 653 00:16:36.950 --> 00:16:38.369 or the numeral 8 654 00:16:38.909 --> 00:16:40.020 because somewhere along the way, 655 00:16:40.070 --> 00:16:41.109 I use that as an example, 656 00:16:41.190 --> 00:16:41.750 it's not true. 657 00:16:41.830 --> 00:16:43.989 I learned about commas later when I was in college. 658 00:16:44.409 --> 00:16:44.849 And so, 659 00:16:44.969 --> 00:16:45.099 but, 660 00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:46.960 but somewhere along the way when I was 661 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.109 learning to write and learning to express myself, 662 00:16:49.479 --> 00:16:52.140 because I was moving back and forth between all of these teachers, 663 00:16:52.409 --> 00:16:54.710 because they could only teach in their rigid way, 664 00:16:55.270 --> 00:16:57.690 block by block by block by block by block, 665 00:16:57.859 --> 00:17:00.489 there was no tolerance for anything different and then what that taught me was, 666 00:17:00.570 --> 00:17:02.039 and I think that this is really important, 667 00:17:02.369 --> 00:17:06.348 what that taught me was that now imagine there's any disruption at your home. 668 00:17:07.180 --> 00:17:09.560 Imagine there's any disruption in your family life 669 00:17:09.979 --> 00:17:10.858 and there's any change. 670 00:17:10.979 --> 00:17:13.060 My mother died along the way when I was 8 years, 671 00:17:13.098 --> 00:17:13.939 9 years old, 672 00:17:14.239 --> 00:17:14.540 uh, 673 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:15.140 and so, 674 00:17:15.260 --> 00:17:16.339 and so what that means is, 675 00:17:16.449 --> 00:17:16.670 and I, 676 00:17:16.739 --> 00:17:16.858 you know, 677 00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:17.439 I got, 678 00:17:17.618 --> 00:17:17.839 you know, 679 00:17:18.140 --> 00:17:20.699 my family at least had money to buy food and 680 00:17:20.699 --> 00:17:22.699 pay rent and think of all the families that don't. 681 00:17:23.368 --> 00:17:24.648 How are you gonna learn then in 682 00:17:24.648 --> 00:17:28.428 the context of a rigid regimented bureaucratic teacher 683 00:17:28.688 --> 00:17:31.468 who has little tolerance for any variability in the students 684 00:17:31.609 --> 00:17:35.588 when in fact it is in fact the variability between and among the students 685 00:17:35.769 --> 00:17:37.239 that empowers their learning 686 00:17:37.529 --> 00:17:38.208 and so what we, 687 00:17:38.288 --> 00:17:42.328 what we're living in now is in fact a strange industrialized model. 688 00:17:42.369 --> 00:17:42.609 In fact, 689 00:17:42.659 --> 00:17:43.009 I 690 00:17:43.239 --> 00:17:46.948 began in all these schools that I went to to think of it as nothing but a factory. 691 00:17:47.968 --> 00:17:49.769 And so then what would happen from time to time, 692 00:17:49.808 --> 00:17:51.828 I would occasionally meet a teacher and they would say, 693 00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:52.629 oh. 694 00:17:53.310 --> 00:17:53.969 I see 695 00:17:54.270 --> 00:17:55.500 you're not like the rest of us here, 696 00:17:55.510 --> 00:17:57.089 and so they would let me do my own thing. 697 00:17:57.750 --> 00:17:59.380 So when I went to one school in the 10th grade, 698 00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:02.020 I moved around a lot in the 10th grade because my dad had gotten out of the Navy, 699 00:18:02.069 --> 00:18:02.750 didn't have a job. 700 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:03.910 We were living in Missouri, 701 00:18:03.989 --> 00:18:04.729 living in Maryland, 702 00:18:05.109 --> 00:18:05.949 living in Illinois, 703 00:18:06.030 --> 00:18:06.949 moving all over the place, 704 00:18:07.069 --> 00:18:08.060 trying to make things happen. 705 00:18:08.380 --> 00:18:10.829 And so the one biology teacher who was a genius teacher, 706 00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:11.150 he said, 707 00:18:11.270 --> 00:18:11.390 Oh, 708 00:18:11.510 --> 00:18:11.910 Michael. 709 00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:14.020 I'm gonna give you some mice. 710 00:18:14.829 --> 00:18:16.689 And you're gonna just do some experiments. 711 00:18:16.989 --> 00:18:20.430 I want you to figure out how to design an experiment and do some experiments on mice. 712 00:18:20.510 --> 00:18:22.189 So I started reading everything and 713 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:22.910 what was, 714 00:18:22.989 --> 00:18:23.109 you know, 715 00:18:23.180 --> 00:18:24.689 and so I did these experiments about 716 00:18:25.310 --> 00:18:25.729 dark 717 00:18:25.910 --> 00:18:28.989 and light and mice and eating and weight gain and other stuff. 718 00:18:29.030 --> 00:18:29.469 I didn't know what, 719 00:18:29.589 --> 00:18:31.150 so I started designing an experiment, 720 00:18:31.270 --> 00:18:32.189 doing an experiment, 721 00:18:32.469 --> 00:18:34.349 and I was learning biology and learning behavior, 722 00:18:34.469 --> 00:18:34.930 learning, 723 00:18:35.199 --> 00:18:35.420 uh, 724 00:18:35.449 --> 00:18:37.180 organisms and all this other kind of stuff, 725 00:18:37.229 --> 00:18:38.170 and it was fantastic. 726 00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:39.369 And so 727 00:18:39.469 --> 00:18:40.290 what I found, 728 00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:40.630 you know, 729 00:18:40.750 --> 00:18:41.829 not to the heart of your question, 730 00:18:41.949 --> 00:18:43.550 but tangentially to your question. 731 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.760 What I found was that, 732 00:18:45.790 --> 00:18:46.040 uh, 733 00:18:46.050 --> 00:18:47.939 moving around taught me 734 00:18:48.439 --> 00:18:48.890 how 735 00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:53.310 fundamentally flawed the overall educational process really is. 736 00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:57.459 And then that gave me high tolerance for being willing to be creative, 737 00:18:57.959 --> 00:18:59.199 to be a part of doing new things. 738 00:18:59.280 --> 00:19:00.150 You might notice that we have, 739 00:19:00.199 --> 00:19:00.319 you know, 740 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.560 30 transdisciplinary schools at ASU. 741 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:03.160 We have, 742 00:19:03.479 --> 00:19:05.709 we have anti-disciplinary schools at ASU. 743 00:19:05.800 --> 00:19:06.280 We have, 744 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:06.979 uh, 745 00:19:07.449 --> 00:19:07.469 uh, 746 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:07.800 there were, 747 00:19:07.910 --> 00:19:11.060 there was a young woman in Barrett that I met a few years ago. 748 00:19:12.109 --> 00:19:13.910 Who had been admitted to Juilliard, 749 00:19:13.989 --> 00:19:14.189 you know, 750 00:19:14.550 --> 00:19:15.449 supposedly the most, 751 00:19:15.469 --> 00:19:15.949 uh, 752 00:19:16.349 --> 00:19:16.839 um, 753 00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:17.489 uh, 754 00:19:17.959 --> 00:19:19.630 exclusive music school in the country, 755 00:19:19.709 --> 00:19:21.270 but she didn't want to go to Juilliard because 756 00:19:21.270 --> 00:19:23.270 they wouldn't let her also be a biochemistry major. 757 00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:24.500 Well, 758 00:19:24.550 --> 00:19:24.989 here you can be, 759 00:19:25.069 --> 00:19:25.189 you know, 760 00:19:25.310 --> 00:19:27.689 you wanna be a biochemistry major while you study music? 761 00:19:27.829 --> 00:19:28.030 OK, 762 00:19:28.150 --> 00:19:28.609 no problem. 763 00:19:29.109 --> 00:19:32.170 And so that's what I would have preferred when I showed up to college. 764 00:19:32.550 --> 00:19:35.510 That's what I would prefer today if I was your age and just coming to college. 765 00:19:35.589 --> 00:19:37.050 I would walk up to the person 766 00:19:37.339 --> 00:19:39.020 and I wouldn't say 5 majors. 767 00:19:39.349 --> 00:19:42.449 I would say these are the 10 things I want to try to learn while I'm here. 768 00:19:43.189 --> 00:19:46.540 Please customize for me a pathway through this institution 769 00:19:46.750 --> 00:19:48.349 where I can come out with this understanding, 770 00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:50.449 or I would say all I want to do. 771 00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:52.550 Is I want to read books. 772 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:54.949 And they would say, 773 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:55.520 OK, 774 00:19:55.760 --> 00:19:56.680 here's those books. 775 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.510 And then when you're done reading those books, 776 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:00.030 now you're a master learner. 777 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:00.540 So 778 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:01.729 we're still not there, 779 00:20:01.810 --> 00:20:03.719 but we're closer at ASU than most places. 780 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:04.209 Yeah, 781 00:20:04.250 --> 00:20:04.449 I mean, 782 00:20:04.489 --> 00:20:06.260 I think the human event is a really good example. 783 00:20:06.719 --> 00:20:09.130 I like discussing different books and, 784 00:20:09.310 --> 00:20:09.719 um, 785 00:20:10.010 --> 00:20:13.410 just having these like discussions about the human psyche and how it's evolved. 786 00:20:13.770 --> 00:20:15.160 So we have one last question for you, 787 00:20:15.239 --> 00:20:15.420 um, 788 00:20:15.569 --> 00:20:16.290 before we wrap up. 789 00:20:16.329 --> 00:20:16.760 Um, 790 00:20:16.969 --> 00:20:18.810 where do you see Barrett in the larger vision 791 00:20:18.810 --> 00:20:21.209 of ASU because we know that you oversee ASU, 792 00:20:21.270 --> 00:20:22.449 but specifically with Barrett, 793 00:20:22.489 --> 00:20:25.530 like what are your hopes for the future of continued growth at Barrett? 794 00:20:25.569 --> 00:20:29.069 So one thing I'm hoping for with Barris Barrett is enhanced diversity. 795 00:20:29.540 --> 00:20:30.020 Uh, 796 00:20:30.219 --> 00:20:30.520 more, 797 00:20:30.699 --> 00:20:31.319 uh, 798 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:31.890 uh, 799 00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:33.099 socioeconomic diversity, 800 00:20:33.300 --> 00:20:34.369 more ethnic diversity. 801 00:20:34.410 --> 00:20:36.810 It's already more diverse than most honors colleges, 802 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:38.489 including the Columbia's and the, 803 00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:39.979 and the Harvard's and so forth, 804 00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:41.599 but we need more diversity. 805 00:20:41.689 --> 00:20:42.050 Uh, 806 00:20:42.380 --> 00:20:44.319 I'm looking for it to be a place where, 807 00:20:44.540 --> 00:20:44.689 uh, 808 00:20:44.739 --> 00:20:45.579 this will sound strange, 809 00:20:45.619 --> 00:20:47.560 and I'm looking at the vice dean over there, 810 00:20:47.939 --> 00:20:48.390 uh, 811 00:20:48.579 --> 00:20:49.099 um. 812 00:20:50.150 --> 00:20:51.500 Like triple majors are common. 813 00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:54.020 Common 814 00:20:55.209 --> 00:20:55.569 Uh, 815 00:20:55.609 --> 00:20:56.089 and so, 816 00:20:56.209 --> 00:20:58.079 and so the notion of then thinking through, 817 00:20:58.969 --> 00:21:01.770 now we just did an article on a bunch of triple majors here just the other day, 818 00:21:01.810 --> 00:21:02.150 and 819 00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:03.369 one of them I happen to know, 820 00:21:03.410 --> 00:21:05.369 and I ran into him last night walking to the, 821 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:06.050 the, 822 00:21:06.130 --> 00:21:08.150 the defeat of the University of Arizona game, 823 00:21:08.569 --> 00:21:08.739 uh, 824 00:21:08.890 --> 00:21:09.670 and 825 00:21:09.959 --> 00:21:10.089 yes, 826 00:21:10.290 --> 00:21:10.489 right, 827 00:21:10.589 --> 00:21:11.050 and so, 828 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:12.250 and so I was talking to him and, 829 00:21:12.329 --> 00:21:12.530 and, 830 00:21:12.609 --> 00:21:13.030 and, 831 00:21:13.310 --> 00:21:14.560 and he was kind of interesting and so, 832 00:21:14.689 --> 00:21:14.849 you know, 833 00:21:14.930 --> 00:21:16.160 he just said that it's all about, 834 00:21:16.329 --> 00:21:16.530 you know, 835 00:21:16.810 --> 00:21:18.130 planning and discipline and 836 00:21:18.560 --> 00:21:18.900 You know, 837 00:21:19.040 --> 00:21:20.900 not thinking about summers off, 838 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:21.650 and 839 00:21:21.790 --> 00:21:21.880 you know, 840 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:21.949 I, 841 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.069 I'm like summers off. 842 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.680 I don't even know what that like when I went to college at age 17, 843 00:21:25.760 --> 00:21:25.920 I, 844 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:27.479 I never went home to live again. 845 00:21:28.750 --> 00:21:29.689 What did you do? 846 00:21:30.109 --> 00:21:31.109 I had to find jobs. 847 00:21:31.189 --> 00:21:32.589 I had to find ways to advance. 848 00:21:32.670 --> 00:21:33.260 I had to, 849 00:21:33.670 --> 00:21:33.819 you know, 850 00:21:33.910 --> 00:21:33.939 I, 851 00:21:34.069 --> 00:21:34.430 I was like, 852 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:34.719 you know, 853 00:21:34.869 --> 00:21:39.280 I took my trunk out of my dad's station wagon and that was it and then move on. 854 00:21:39.709 --> 00:21:40.300 And so, 855 00:21:40.390 --> 00:21:43.089 and so I'm not saying that that's what every student should do, 856 00:21:43.189 --> 00:21:43.530 but 857 00:21:43.709 --> 00:21:44.550 when you go to college, 858 00:21:44.630 --> 00:21:46.010 you should go to college. 859 00:21:46.349 --> 00:21:49.589 You should take the 3 or 4 or 5 years that you're gonna be in college and. 860 00:21:49.930 --> 00:21:51.810 Get your 3 majors or your, 861 00:21:51.819 --> 00:21:51.829 your, 862 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:53.530 your bachelor's and your master's, 863 00:21:53.609 --> 00:21:53.800 you know, 864 00:21:53.890 --> 00:21:54.729 all at the same time. 865 00:21:54.810 --> 00:21:55.489 And so what I'm 866 00:21:55.729 --> 00:21:57.989 hopeful that Barrett can demonstrate is 867 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:03.390 what would be the highest order master learner that human beings could produce 868 00:22:04.089 --> 00:22:05.670 and can Barrett produce those. 869 00:22:07.349 --> 00:22:08.430 That's a daring question. 870 00:22:08.510 --> 00:22:08.599 I 871 00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:09.540 love that. 872 00:22:09.670 --> 00:22:09.709 Yes, 873 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:11.859 I'm looking at the vice dean over there and 874 00:22:12.469 --> 00:22:13.890 sending her signals. 875 00:22:14.270 --> 00:22:16.089 I know that's really encouraging for me too 876 00:22:16.089 --> 00:22:17.540 because I know I'm on the downtown campus. 877 00:22:17.560 --> 00:22:18.560 I'm a journalism student, 878 00:22:18.750 --> 00:22:19.420 but um, 879 00:22:19.430 --> 00:22:20.430 I come down here all the time. 880 00:22:20.479 --> 00:22:21.780 I'm a part of an a cappella group. 881 00:22:21.849 --> 00:22:24.650 I'm trying to do music as a minor and Spanish as a minor, 882 00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:25.329 um. 883 00:22:25.459 --> 00:22:27.219 And so for me it's just really well you're doing it, 884 00:22:27.260 --> 00:22:27.540 so you're, 885 00:22:27.569 --> 00:22:28.339 you're getting it going. 886 00:22:28.459 --> 00:22:28.739 So, 887 00:22:29.060 --> 00:22:30.939 so that's what I'm talking about is exactly what you're doing. 888 00:22:31.060 --> 00:22:31.359 So 889 00:22:31.540 --> 00:22:32.329 you're doing journalism, 890 00:22:32.349 --> 00:22:33.420 you're on multiple campuses, 891 00:22:33.459 --> 00:22:35.489 so we've built these bus systems and light 892 00:22:35.489 --> 00:22:37.540 rail systems and shuttle that's what I mean. 893 00:22:37.739 --> 00:22:37.900 So no, 894 00:22:37.939 --> 00:22:39.500 but we did all of that and so most 895 00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:42.250 places would say in most universities have multiple campuses, 896 00:22:42.260 --> 00:22:43.660 you can't go between the campuses. 897 00:22:44.959 --> 00:22:47.310 Most universities have different leadership on every campus and 898 00:22:47.310 --> 00:22:48.910 then they fight and argue with each other. 899 00:22:49.300 --> 00:22:50.449 We don't how it's supposed to be. 900 00:22:50.589 --> 00:22:51.449 We don't have any of that. 901 00:22:52.089 --> 00:22:53.229 We have one university. 902 00:22:53.439 --> 00:22:54.109 Can I ask you a question? 903 00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:54.130 Uh, 904 00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:59.349 you do so many things like this is university is big. 905 00:23:00.430 --> 00:23:00.439 There, 906 00:23:00.449 --> 00:23:01.270 there are so many things. 907 00:23:01.349 --> 00:23:02.459 There's athletics. 908 00:23:02.790 --> 00:23:03.800 There are so many things. 909 00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:06.829 When and why do you find the time for Barrett? 910 00:23:07.849 --> 00:23:08.050 Well, 911 00:23:08.250 --> 00:23:09.449 time is um. 912 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.260 So how long does it take to come up with a brilliant idea? 913 00:23:14.479 --> 00:23:15.819 A fraction of a second. 914 00:23:16.560 --> 00:23:19.560 So time is a unit that's often misunderstood, 915 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:19.989 so, 916 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.760 so people think that time is a function of a constraint. 917 00:23:24.630 --> 00:23:26.920 So time is merely a variable. 918 00:23:27.500 --> 00:23:28.640 It's merely a, 919 00:23:28.709 --> 00:23:28.939 a, 920 00:23:29.030 --> 00:23:29.209 an, 921 00:23:29.300 --> 00:23:31.310 an element of your existence. 922 00:23:31.859 --> 00:23:32.979 And so if you don't, 923 00:23:33.060 --> 00:23:35.750 if you master time and you understand time. 924 00:23:37.250 --> 00:23:38.650 And you understand what you're doing, 925 00:23:38.719 --> 00:23:40.369 it doesn't even enter your mind. 926 00:23:40.489 --> 00:23:40.920 So it's not, 927 00:23:40.930 --> 00:23:42.239 where do I find time? 928 00:23:42.369 --> 00:23:43.630 I don't have to find time. 929 00:23:44.329 --> 00:23:45.449 Time is not a variable. 930 00:23:46.290 --> 00:23:47.609 The variable is, 931 00:23:47.619 --> 00:23:48.660 where is your energy going, 932 00:23:48.739 --> 00:23:51.219 so more valuable than time is energy. 933 00:23:51.829 --> 00:23:52.489 And so, 934 00:23:52.709 --> 00:23:52.869 so, 935 00:23:52.979 --> 00:23:53.229 and then, 936 00:23:53.310 --> 00:23:55.550 and then there's the immeasurable and the intangible, 937 00:23:55.589 --> 00:23:56.849 which is creativity. 938 00:23:57.349 --> 00:23:58.910 Creativity has nothing to do with time. 939 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:01.599 Nothing, 940 00:24:01.739 --> 00:24:01.800 no, 941 00:24:01.900 --> 00:24:01.979 no, 942 00:24:02.060 --> 00:24:04.250 the output of your creativity has to do with time. 943 00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:07.420 The creativity itself has nothing to do with time. 944 00:24:08.489 --> 00:24:10.660 Creativity can be instantaneous. 945 00:24:11.060 --> 00:24:11.380 In fact, 946 00:24:11.540 --> 00:24:12.739 most often is. 947 00:24:13.060 --> 00:24:16.239 Creativity is usually at its highest possible level 948 00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:19.500 at the exact moment where you're confronted with either opportunity, 949 00:24:19.699 --> 00:24:20.020 pressure, 950 00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:20.780 threat. 951 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:25.660 So the fastest and most creative person is a person attempting to avoid a threat. 952 00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:29.329 Attempting to avoid some kind of circumstance, 953 00:24:30.030 --> 00:24:31.849 the most creative surgeon 954 00:24:32.069 --> 00:24:35.469 is a surgeon confronted with something they haven't seen before, 955 00:24:35.709 --> 00:24:37.510 and then in that instant of surgery, 956 00:24:37.589 --> 00:24:39.469 they devise a new suture technique. 957 00:24:39.750 --> 00:24:43.449 They devise a new way to approach a failed heart. 958 00:24:43.989 --> 00:24:47.449 A radiologist who's looking at some kind of imagery of cancer, 959 00:24:47.750 --> 00:24:48.099 if they're, 960 00:24:48.219 --> 00:24:48.390 you know, 961 00:24:48.510 --> 00:24:49.400 they're not a robot, 962 00:24:49.910 --> 00:24:50.060 if, 963 00:24:50.109 --> 00:24:51.770 if we just wanted to judge cancer 964 00:24:51.910 --> 00:24:52.579 with robots, 965 00:24:52.630 --> 00:24:53.280 we could do that, 966 00:24:53.510 --> 00:24:54.229 and we will. 967 00:24:54.589 --> 00:24:56.089 But at the top of the robots, 968 00:24:56.199 --> 00:24:58.900 the artificial intelligence systems that will be studying the images 969 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:02.239 for cancer will be an intuitively driven. 970 00:25:03.829 --> 00:25:05.770 Hypothesis oriented, 971 00:25:06.390 --> 00:25:08.170 calculating risk taker 972 00:25:08.390 --> 00:25:09.229 called a human. 973 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.069 That a computer can never be. 974 00:25:12.609 --> 00:25:14.369 So now imagine the radiologists of the 975 00:25:14.369 --> 00:25:17.589 future backed up by 25 supercomputer artificial 976 00:25:17.859 --> 00:25:20.410 intelligence systems who now is able to then 977 00:25:20.650 --> 00:25:22.989 look at a scan of a person's kidney 978 00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:26.050 and tell you instantly not only if they have cancer, 979 00:25:26.170 --> 00:25:26.969 where they have cancer, 980 00:25:27.130 --> 00:25:28.040 where it's moved, 981 00:25:28.250 --> 00:25:29.329 what kind of cancer it is, 982 00:25:29.449 --> 00:25:29.969 where it's going, 983 00:25:30.050 --> 00:25:31.550 and what it's likely to do. 984 00:25:32.989 --> 00:25:33.900 That is creativity. 985 00:25:34.010 --> 00:25:35.560 All of that occurs within an instant. 986 00:25:36.099 --> 00:25:37.660 Then that creativity becomes, 987 00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:39.079 becomes cumulative. 988 00:25:39.619 --> 00:25:40.010 So the 989 00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:42.640 the creative expression of one person then becomes the 990 00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:44.699 baseline condition for another person. 991 00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:46.260 So the function of learning, 992 00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:46.660 by the way, 993 00:25:46.780 --> 00:25:49.780 so to learn that I can learn that it's possible to think of, 994 00:25:49.939 --> 00:25:50.680 I'll give you an example, 995 00:25:50.689 --> 00:25:50.900 so. 996 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:51.520 Uh, 997 00:25:51.569 --> 00:25:52.719 last week I was in Switzerland. 998 00:25:52.770 --> 00:25:55.719 For some reason I had access to this Star Trek show on Netflix 999 00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.550 that I don't have access to here called Star Trek Discovery. 1000 00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:00.800 Star Trek Discovery is the latest version, 1001 00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:03.319 2018 version of a whole new way of thinking about Star Trek. 1002 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:05.589 So they had this theory that they're projecting, 1003 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:07.589 which turns out to be scientifically possible, 1004 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.500 which is that there are uh fungi 1005 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:14.660 in the galaxy that are connected into a massive life form. 1006 00:26:15.239 --> 00:26:17.180 So what's the largest life form on Earth? 1007 00:26:19.540 --> 00:26:19.989 The great whale. 1008 00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:21.359 No, 1009 00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:23.020 fungi, 1010 00:26:23.739 --> 00:26:26.040 probably after that are aspen trees, 1011 00:26:26.310 --> 00:26:26.739 uh, 1012 00:26:26.780 --> 00:26:29.839 and so there are fungi that go for 1013 00:26:30.260 --> 00:26:31.800 thousands of square miles, 1014 00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:33.930 possibly cover the entire planet. 1015 00:26:34.239 --> 00:26:39.239 So the hypothesis in this science fiction idea created by a science fiction writer 1016 00:26:39.439 --> 00:26:40.800 manifested in a film, 1017 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:41.280 a movie, 1018 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.119 a multi-part miniseries called Star Trek Discovery, 1019 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:44.719 was that, 1020 00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:44.920 well, 1021 00:26:45.030 --> 00:26:48.130 why don't we assume that there are fungi now in an ecosystem 1022 00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:49.719 not limited only to the Earth, 1023 00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:52.300 so you probably operate under the simplistic model 1024 00:26:52.439 --> 00:26:54.300 that the Earth is a closed ecosystem. 1025 00:26:54.760 --> 00:26:57.839 The probability that the Earth is a closed ecosystem is zero. 1026 00:26:58.420 --> 00:26:59.969 And so we don't know much about it yet. 1027 00:27:00.060 --> 00:27:02.020 So now I can imagine that like that. 1028 00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:05.489 The writer of that story can then take that fungi thing and now can say, 1029 00:27:05.739 --> 00:27:08.790 now imagine that this fungi exists across the galaxy, 1030 00:27:09.060 --> 00:27:12.760 and perhaps it's a mechanism for faster than speed of light transport. 1031 00:27:13.300 --> 00:27:14.819 That's a true example of creativity. 1032 00:27:15.060 --> 00:27:15.280 Yes, 1033 00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:15.619 now, 1034 00:27:15.699 --> 00:27:18.280 is faster than speed of light transport possible? 1035 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:19.969 The answer is yes, 1036 00:27:20.050 --> 00:27:21.530 so you need to track these kinds of things. 1037 00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:21.910 So 1038 00:27:22.050 --> 00:27:25.250 physicists in Italy have been able to move light particles 1039 00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:27.770 faster than the speed of light on an experimental basis. 1040 00:27:27.849 --> 00:27:29.010 How's that possible? 1041 00:27:30.699 --> 00:27:30.810 No, 1042 00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:34.410 that's possible because they are not limited even by Einstein's theories. 1043 00:27:34.770 --> 00:27:35.930 So what is a theory? 1044 00:27:36.489 --> 00:27:39.709 So a theory is nothing but the latest explanation 1045 00:27:40.449 --> 00:27:41.729 for how something works. 1046 00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:43.300 It is the latest, 1047 00:27:43.609 --> 00:27:44.310 yet again, 1048 00:27:44.739 --> 00:27:47.329 incomplete explanation of how the world works. 1049 00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:48.449 You know how long it takes. 1050 00:27:49.050 --> 00:27:52.750 Einstein to come up with the theory of relativity according to his own biography 1051 00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:55.030 an hour. 1052 00:27:57.489 --> 00:27:57.939 And so again, 1053 00:27:58.020 --> 00:27:58.660 this whole notion, 1054 00:27:58.739 --> 00:28:00.140 so people get all distorted. 1055 00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:02.880 They think that work is a function of time. 1056 00:28:04.229 --> 00:28:04.540 Well yeah, 1057 00:28:04.589 --> 00:28:08.819 it amazes me because you do so many things and this university is 1058 00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:12.560 big and you're you're invested and involved in all aspects of it. 1059 00:28:12.989 --> 00:28:13.359 I'm like, 1060 00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:13.660 why, 1061 00:28:13.869 --> 00:28:14.699 where do you find time because 1062 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:17.790 in itself it's varied, 1063 00:28:17.869 --> 00:28:18.430 it's myriad, 1064 00:28:18.489 --> 00:28:19.640 it does so many things 1065 00:28:20.459 --> 00:28:21.500 and I was just wondering. 1066 00:28:21.589 --> 00:28:21.750 Well, 1067 00:28:21.910 --> 00:28:24.170 so the other thing is that you don't have to know everything. 1068 00:28:24.589 --> 00:28:25.229 It's impossible, 1069 00:28:25.310 --> 00:28:26.319 so don't even try. 1070 00:28:26.790 --> 00:28:27.869 You can't control everything, 1071 00:28:27.959 --> 00:28:28.790 so don't try. 1072 00:28:29.229 --> 00:28:29.900 So what you have to do, 1073 00:28:29.949 --> 00:28:31.969 the smart person decides what they can control. 1074 00:28:32.989 --> 00:28:35.400 What they can influence and what they can affect the outcome of so. 1075 00:28:36.819 --> 00:28:37.339 Great interview. 1076 00:28:37.430 --> 00:28:37.739 Thank you. 1077 00:28:37.939 --> 00:28:38.530 Nice to see you. 1078 00:28:38.959 --> 00:28:38.969 Yes, 1079 00:28:39.140 --> 00:28:40.209 thank you for your participation. 1080 00:28:40.250 --> 00:28:42.939 If you have any more thoughts or you'd like to share any more information later on, 1081 00:28:43.219 --> 00:28:44.869 please contact Vice Dean Nicola Foot. 1082 00:28:45.140 --> 00:28:46.500 And if you have any questions about this 1083 00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:48.770 interview or the 30th anniversary Oral History Project, 1084 00:28:48.819 --> 00:28:50.010 you can contact the Vice Dean. 1085 00:28:50.209 --> 00:28:51.089 It was a pleasure meeting you. 1086 00:28:51.219 --> 00:28:51.329 OK, 1087 00:28:51.449 --> 00:28:51.890 nice to see you. 1088 00:28:51.949 --> 00:28:52.319 Thank you. 1089 00:28:52.790 --> 00:28:53.359 Thank you so much. 1090 00:28:54.339 --> 00:28:55.699 You just want to grab the NyQuil. 1091 00:28:56.260 --> 00:28:56.729 Nice to see you. 1092 00:28:56.939 --> 00:28:57.699 Nice to see you. 1093 00:28:57.969 --> 00:28:58.329 Nice to see you. 1094 00:28:59.939 --> 00:29:00.439 Thank you very 1095 00:29:00.540 --> 00:29:01.060 much. 1096 00:29:02.030 --> 00:29:02.040 OK, 1097 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:04.060 did you guys find the sign 1098 00:29:05.310 --> 00:29:05.900 or am I supposed to be? 1099 00:29:06.030 --> 00:29:06.040 Well, 1100 00:29:06.099 --> 00:29:06.229 we can make some, 1101 00:29:06.239 --> 00:29:06.250 no, 1102 00:29:06.260 --> 00:29:06.300 don't worry. 1103 00:29:06.310 --> 00:29:06.479 I can we take a quick picture just 1104 00:29:10.790 --> 00:29:10.819 of yours. 1105 00:29:12.260 --> 00:29:14.579 Since everyone else that records me doesn't even ask for consent, 1106 00:29:14.699 --> 00:29:16.869 so you want to take the archive, 1107 00:29:16.979 --> 00:29:17.099 uh, 1108 00:29:17.219 --> 00:29:17.260 yeah, 1109 00:29:17.339 --> 00:29:17.920 I can take one. 1110 00:29:18.540 --> 00:29:19.170 And then Denise, 1111 00:29:19.219 --> 00:29:19.459 we can, 1112 00:29:19.540 --> 00:29:20.380 we should see what else we can do. 1113 00:29:20.540 --> 00:29:21.369 You want one just the interview. 1114 00:29:21.699 --> 00:29:21.709 No, 1115 00:29:21.859 --> 00:29:21.869 no, 1116 00:29:22.099 --> 00:29:23.459 you were also a part of the team. 1117 00:29:30.459 --> 00:29:30.760 OK, 1118 00:29:30.810 --> 00:29:31.290 look here. 1119 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:34.150 All right. 1120 00:29:34.670 --> 00:29:34.680 Great. 1121 00:29:35.540 --> 00:29:35.550 All. 1122 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:35.910 Thank you. 1123 00:29:36.030 --> 00:29:36.510 Thank you. 1124 00:29:36.780 --> 00:29:36.829 So, 1125 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:37.000 you guys, 1126 00:29:37.109 --> 00:29:37.280 you guys, 1127 00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:38.520 here's an idea just put in your head. 1128 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:38.719 So, 1129 00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:38.989 you know, 1130 00:29:39.040 --> 00:29:39.339 you have, 1131 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:39.589 uh, 1132 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.040 you have 1013, 1133 00:29:41.239 --> 00:29:42.479 that's low trillions 1134 00:29:42.760 --> 00:29:43.760 of cells in your body, 1135 00:29:43.849 --> 00:29:44.119 right? 1136 00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:47.530 Low trillions of individual cells, 1137 00:29:48.290 --> 00:29:49.719 you know that the cells in the human body 1138 00:29:49.719 --> 00:29:52.709 are two organisms that blended together in evolutionary event 1139 00:29:53.550 --> 00:29:54.479 billions of years ago. 1140 00:29:55.280 --> 00:29:56.770 So basically human cells 1141 00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:59.420 are two different organisms 1142 00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:01.670 that existed pre-existed 1143 00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:04.319 that then formed into the cells that now make up your. 1144 00:30:05.290 --> 00:30:06.949 But you have 1014, 1145 00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:10.619 that is more than you have individual cells in your body. 1146 00:30:11.060 --> 00:30:13.339 You have individual microorganisms in your body. 1147 00:30:14.719 --> 00:30:16.719 More than the number of cells in the body. 1148 00:30:19.829 --> 00:30:20.189 I don't know, 1149 00:30:20.270 --> 00:30:20.869 but what are you, 1150 00:30:20.989 --> 00:30:24.589 since there's more of you that isn't human than there is of you that is human. 1151 00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:26.500 So, 1152 00:30:26.750 --> 00:30:27.449 so you ought to even, 1153 00:30:27.550 --> 00:30:27.709 you know, 1154 00:30:27.869 --> 00:30:28.619 think through, 1155 00:30:28.829 --> 00:30:29.949 you ought to think through. 1156 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:31.979 I've learned more in this half an hour. 1157 00:30:34.239 --> 00:30:34.630 OK. 1158 00:30:35.030 --> 00:30:35.219 All right, 1159 00:30:35.430 --> 00:30:35.800 nice to see you. 1160 00:30:35.810 --> 00:30:35.819 OK, 1161 00:30:37.609 --> 00:30:37.619 yeah, 1162 00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:37.869 nice to see you. 1163 00:30:38.790 --> 00:30:40.170 What do you think university presidents are? 1164 00:30:41.619 --> 00:30:42.739 Like paper pushers. 1165 00:30:44.479 --> 00:30:45.750 You're different than all of them. 1166 00:30:47.510 --> 00:30:48.319 Thank you. 1167 00:30:50.229 --> 00:30:50.390 Uh, 1168 00:30:50.670 --> 00:30:51.050 anybody else? 1169 00:30:52.209 --> 00:30:52.219 No. 1170 00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:53.310 What? 1171 00:30:54.540 --> 00:30:54.550 Any? 1172 00:30:55.689 --> 00:30:55.819 OK. 1173 00:30:55.930 --> 00:30:56.300 I walked. 1174 00:30:58.130 --> 00:30:58.250 Oh, 1175 00:30:59.900 --> 00:31:00.069 I, 1176 00:31:00.290 --> 00:31:00.890 I just. 1177 00:31:00.949 --> 00:31:01.550 I'll be right back. 1178 00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:02.219 Thank you so much. 1179 00:31:02.280 --> 00:31:02.390 OK. 1180 00:31:03.849 --> 00:31:04.099 Thank you guys. 1181 00:31:04.109 --> 00:31:04.130 Great job 1182 00:31:04.339 --> 00:31:04.349 guys. 1183 00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:04.380 That was 1184 00:31:07.900 --> 00:31:08.180 that was that was fabulous. 1185 00:31:10.660 --> 00:31:13.790 There were so many moments where you were collecting such 1186 00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:16.770 incredible material you guys did a great job. 1187 00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:17.959 That's some real, 1188 00:31:18.130 --> 00:31:18.520 yeah, 1189 00:31:18.609 --> 00:31:21.050 and you got through all the things you wanted to ask. 1190 00:31:21.170 --> 00:31:22.839 You asked some interesting follow-ups. 1191 00:31:22.849 --> 00:31:23.489 You did really, 1192 00:31:23.569 --> 00:31:24.170 really well. 1193 00:31:24.369 --> 00:31:24.439 Well, 1194 00:31:24.530 --> 00:31:24.579 thanks. 1195 00:31:24.709 --> 00:31:24.810 I was gonna say 1196 00:31:25.939 --> 00:31:26.989 you did do a really nice job. 1197 00:31:28.819 --> 00:31:29.250 Usually, 1198 00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:29.530 you know, 1199 00:31:29.630 --> 00:31:31.650 he's got to keep on his schedule and the fact that he 1200 00:31:31.650 --> 00:31:34.089 stayed with you guys beyond that means he was having fun. 1201 00:31:34.229 --> 00:31:34.239 So 1202 00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:35.989 thank you.